Hyborem's Whisper

[WarKirby]

In a recent hotseat game with a friend, he founded AV, and I was using OO.

Eventually, Hyborem came to the world, as is inevitable. And he eventually used his world spell, Hyborem's Whisper. for anyone who doesn't remember, it basically allos him to take control of the best AV city in the world. In this case, despite it not being my state religion, one of my cities had picked up AV through a trade route. It just so happened to be a huge size 20 economic centre, and the focal point for wine production in all the lands.

I don't have a problem with this, because all he put in it was a longbowman. And I could have two eidolons, hemah, an archmage, a speaker, and an assortment of other things there within 3 turns. I took it back very quickly.

The problem though, is that I had to declare war on him to do so. This doesn't make sense to me. Using a spell like that should be an act of war. It targets a single player specifically, and the city even goes into anarchy immediately after it transfers.


So, in short, I'd like to request that using Hyborem's Whisper be an automatic declaration of war against the victim.

 

[Humakty]

There is a simple counter : give one of your priest inquisitor (?) promotion, which allows to clean your city of non state religion. Hop, no more whispering in shadows...

 

[Gelvan]

but: if you was the one who was summoning hyborem you wouldn't want to be at war with him. So if this was implemented it would be best to ask the player: Hyborem stole your city, do you count this as an act of war?

 

[Ogden Reeve]

Gelvan makes a great point. His suggestion is the perfect solution.

 

[Deon]

but: if you was the one who was summoning hyborem you wouldn't want to be at war with him. So if this was implemented it would be best to ask the player: Hyborem stole your city, do you count this as an act of war?

How is it different from "alt-click"?

 

[Gelvan]

only matters if you have defensive pacts. (I think)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It could be useful in games where declaring war is not allowed.



Frankly, I'd change the world spell entirely. In my (some of) versions the Infernals don't have a real world spell, but Hyborem can take over any AV city that he is in, with a chance of failure. Hyborem can also move in rival territory without open boarders and is much stronger, but he cannot enter non-hell terrain. I'm thinking I'll add a Hyborem UU for each Infernal Leader (which can enter the game in my latest version via rituals), each with their own unique ability but none as strong as Hyborem.

 

[Methuselah]

Would be nice if you had the option to make an alliance with Hyborem as well when he enters.

I figure someone like Tebryn wouldn't be overly fussed about it.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think I'd like it better if Hyborem (and maybe Basium too) were your vassals instead of permanent allies (or perhaps the other way around if you decide to switch). I don't think Basium should stick with an AV ally.

 

[Deon]

I think currently the mercurians start in alliance because they are good but Hyborem doesn't because he is evil and may want to take over the civ which summoned him. However more options avaliable, more enjoyable the game is.

 

[zup]

Basium and his band of robbers is a bunch of fanatics who just want to kill demons. They don't even need, want or have an excuse. I would not call that 'good'.

On the other hand, Hyborem proving the creation is imperfect and getting everything obliterated to purge the taint is definitely good.

 

[civ_king]

Keep in mind zup that good just means opposed to evil in this game such as the fascist totalitarian police state Bannor

 

[Mesix]

Purge the taint is the phrase of the day!

 

[Verdian]

The reason it is not an act of war is because Hyborem does it covertly, using his taint to undermine your authority and turn the city to him. It should not be an act of war, anymore than taking over a city through culture is. It is the same principle.

 

[Deon]

Basium and his band of robbers is a bunch of fanatics who just want to kill demons. They don't even need, want or have an excuse. I would not call that 'good'.

On the other hand, Hyborem proving the creation is imperfect and getting everything obliterated to purge the taint is definitely good.

Oh my god...
My current game: Falamar completes mercurian gate.
3 turns after:
Basium converts to Octopus Overlords
Falamar declares war on you!
Basium declares war on you!

What the hell... I'm Order Elohim...

 

[Valkrionn]

........Basium serving Cthulhu.... Amazing.

 

[dwhee]

This doesn't seem necessary. What difference does it make if you declare war on him or if he declares war on you?

"but HE started it!!"

 

[MagisterCultuum]

If he declares war on you, he looses any defensive pacts he had, those in a defensive pact with you will join the war against him, and he will get a diplomatic penalty with most of the leaders in the game. If you declare war on him then those things are the other way around.



I found Basium serves the Overlords very often. I personally think that should be blocked, as it is a religion that uses demons and he hates demons. Although evil, The Council of Esus lacks direct demonic involvement so I'm fine with Basium adopting that.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Another point that was not mentioned yet. No world spell results in a war declaration, although some really hurt much, why Hyborem's should?

@MagisterCultuum: I think the team will eventually think that some alignment changes have to be prevented, or get penalized, by certain civilizations. The ones that have either specific civics or specific powers because of their alignment, that wouldn't be applicable under another alignment. Typical cases being Shaeim, Bannor, Calabim, Elohim, to name a few. I would suggest giving this issue a thread, so we(and Kael + Team) can see what other people think of this.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

Another point that was not mentioned yet. No world spell results in a war declaration, although some really hurt much, why Hyborem's should?

@MagisterCultuum: I think the team will eventually think that some alignment changes have to be prevented, or get penalized, by certain civilizations. The ones that have either specific civics or specific powers because of their alignment, that wouldn't be applicable under another alignment. Typical cases being Shaeim, Bannor, Calabim, Elohim, to name a few. I would suggest giving this issue a thread, so we(and Kael + Team) can see what other people think of this.

name one other worldspell that directly targets another civ to harm, or just everyone in general? (well I think Basium can autokill Hybbie, but they're likemirrors of each other)