i am really looking forward to this expansion

Limited stacking seems like a happy, and logical, medium, especially if the amount you can stack increases through technology.

1upt from start
2upt after Military Science
3upt after Combined Arms
 
(and kudos for Jon's sense of integrity)

Excuse me, but what sense of integrity? Repeating arguments that were made by many in these very same forums years before? Bashing his previous "creation" to promote his new one?

Sorry friend, but some of us have been in business long enough to know how to read in between lines, and I think that is how we should approach his "confession" posting...

Integrity... :mischief:


Now, if some at Firaxis could learn from the mistakes (perhaps Beach and team), and project that for Civ6. Perhaps it is not necessary to drop 1UPT altogether, but subject to two basic, key conditions:

1. Scale has to be adapted to 1UPT. That means no more "cities are the center of development", but a more "total-war-campaign map" approach where cities serve as the main center in a region, but with production/research/resources/etc spread out within the region (Elemental:FE does something similar), so that the entire map becomes of value, not only the cities, and the regions are vast so that the 1UPT armies fight over them, not over cities. I am not talking fixed regions ala TW, but expanded regions controlled by cities ala Fallen Enchantress.

2. AI: this one is obvious, although the road to a minimum acceptable level may not be as long as it seems right now; proof? Give the game more tiles in between cities, and you see a better AI maneuvering.
 
If folks are upset enough about unit stacking for movement then it might make sense to break combat out into a kind of mini-game that preserves the tactical maneuvering that the current 1UPT system tries to implement.
 
A simple way would be to classify leaders into different traits (like in Civ 3 and Civ 4), but have the UAs at the same time. You don't even need to have as many traits as previously. For instance (and this is just off the top of my head), say, each civ in Civ 6 can have two leaders - a "peaceful" leader that increases building production, and a "warlike" leader that increases unit production, and this alongside the UA for the civ no matter the leader. I mean not exactly like that, it'd probably have to be worked out more for balance and all that, but something like that, no?
Choosing between abilities is fine, but I would hate to have to choose between units. Putting all that work into making new units and then not being able to use them at the same time would suck.

Introducing new attributes would be interesting, but stacking that on top of the existing abilities, buildings and improvements would present some balancing challenges.
 
Choosing between abilities is fine, but I would hate to have to choose between units. Putting all that work into making new units and then not being able to use them at the same time would suck.

Introducing new attributes would be interesting, but stacking that on top of the existing abilities, buildings and improvements would present some balancing challenges.

What I meant was unit production, not units. So like +10% production in a city when making units. But I mean it's just a hasty idea. It's also why I only suggested two differences between buildings and units, since that'd be a bit easier to balance.
 
I'm not so sure if i am going to buy they promised at pax a few years ago that they where going to fix the warmonger penalty in civ 5 with gods and king but they didn't.

Same goes for diplomacy. They where going to fix it but it still vague. Ai is still a a agressive douche and war is the only way to go.

If I see that diplomacy hasn't improved ( america has it earlier then europe ) Then I'm not gonne buy.
 
Not going to happen to V, but it would be pretty cool in VI if they kept the UA concept with 2-3 leaders for each civilization. Add on to that a mix of uniques (units, buildings, improvements) that you could mix-and-match would also be interesting. There would be more variety for each civilization, more strategies available depending on what mix you selected, and more room to fully represent a civilization.

By that I mean England only has the longbowman and the ship of the line. Since CiV is restricted to two uniques per civilization, you have to leave out other possible uniques for England.
 
I'm not so sure if i am going to buy they promised at pax a few years ago that they where going to fix the warmonger penalty in civ 5 with gods and king but they didn't.

Same goes for diplomacy. They where going to fix it but it still vague. Ai is still a a agressive douche and war is the only way to go.

If I see that diplomacy hasn't improved ( america has it earlier then europe ) Then I'm not gonne buy.

??? In G&K I've played many games that didn't require all out war. Yeah the AI will try to get a jump on you early in the game but if you are strong enough early you won't get that sneak attack and then your peaceful for the rest of the game.
 
its a shame its so many months away. the changes they are making plus the changes made in gods and kings make this quite a compelling game. really if they could figure out a way to make the huge map about 4 times bigger and add more technologies and path complexity to the tech tree, the game would be just about what it should have been on release :)

it got me thinking, was Jon Scafers effort a complete failure, and has Ed been brought in to clean it up and make it a respectable game, or are we just in a world now, where the business model is games will ship half baked with two years incremental improvements?

Having said that, will Civ 6 be an evolution of 5, or a complete rewrite?

Civ's own business model has moved incrementally towards more content-based expansions throughout the series' history - this isn't new.

Civ 1 had no expansions.
Civ II had expansions that were merely officially-sanctioned fan-produced scenarios.
Civ III had officially-produced scenario packs as its expansions.
Civ IV was the first to add new content in expansions, most of which were relatively small additive additions to the game.
Civ V takes the obvious next step and packages substantial, game-changing content in its expansions.

This isn't simply a money-grab: it allows elements that benefit from development and an individual focus to be added to the game, and also for the developers to respond to and accommodate player feedback through expansions.

Civ V's development suggests developers pay quite close attention to what players want: consistent after the release of both Civ V and G&K were calls for something like Civ IV's UN, international trade routes, greater focus on diplomacy, a change to cultural victories, shared victories and other elements we're told are to be added in BNW. G&K itself of course included the then-most requested features, espionage and religion (likely to have been included at some stage anyway) as well as an also-requested change to the diplomatic victory condition and substantial improvements to AI performance, diplomacy and naval warfare (which probably wouldn't have been included).

I didn't play the pre-patch, notoriously buggy, stone-resource-less, ICS-ridden Civ V, but the product I played post-patch (pre-G&K) couldn't fairly be described as "half-baked" except in retrospect following the addition of major new content in the first expansion.

I'd agree that it was thinner on the ground than it should have been - the civ roster seemed small with some obvious omissions that were added later as DLC (no Babylon? No Spain? No Vikings when they were in game's the opening cinematic? No scenarios at all), and there should have been some kind of espionage, but it was a more thorough redesign of the main game engine than had previously been attempted, and added new elements to the series (such as CSes, a new approach to strategic resources, and Natural Wonders) while retaining others that had been added to Civ IV in expansions (Great People). As a base product, then, it wasn't appreciably underdeveloped.

As for Civ 6, Civ seems to follow a pattern of redesigning the game every other edition - Civ II was closely patterned after Civ I; Civ III was the first to change major game elements, and this represented the foundation Civ IV built on. So we might expect Civ 6 to be Civ V Plus in the same way.

Still, with both expansions Civ V is going to be a much higher-detail game than its predecessors, with all-new concepts like the archaeology and Great Works systems on top of more developed religion and (apparently) trade and "Congress" mechanics than Civ IV. Including all of these in the base Civ 6 will probably not be feasible, and will leave relatively little to add in future expansions, so Civ 6 will probably start as something similar to Civ V with more features than vanilla Civ V but fewer than Civ V with both expansions (and certainly many fewer civs than 43) - no doubt to be greeted by furious complaints of "dumbing down"...
 
I'm not real happy with the state of the game after the last big patch. In fact I stopped playing it shortly after that last patch.

So yeah, I'm really looking forward to BNW.
 
The "big" stuff that distinguished Civ5 Vanilla from Civ4 is still there, and working well:
- Hexes
- 1UPT
- Zone of Control
- Ranged attacks
- Incremental border growth
- Cities can defend
- Gold/Science/Culture from different sources rather than the slider
- Unique Abilities
- Social Policies
- City States
 
Considering going way back I suggested a trade route mechanic that looks near identical to the one that is actually being implemented in this expansion, yes I am pretty excited.

The only things I can think of "adding" now, would possibly be adjusting the turn/date system (start at 2000 BC, end at 2000 AD imo) and possibly adding a "world is against you" mode, where if a player is "too far ahead" then suddenly you get struck by more natural disasters/barbarians target you more (I would say, Attila may spawn on your borders with a bunch of barbarian units, except apparently he leads a civilization now) etc make the game more dynamic.

I don't expect that to happen though, civ VI will be the next "release" in my opinion. Maybe it'll add the ability to negotiate with multiple leaders at once or something as the marquee feature.
 
Civ 1 had no expansions.
Civ II had expansions that were merely officially-sanctioned fan-produced scenarios.
Civ III had officially-produced scenario packs as its expansions.
Civ IV was the first to add new content in expansions, most of which were relatively small additive additions to the game.
Civ V takes the obvious next step and packages substantial, game-changing content in its expansions.
You're mis-remembering history a bit there... Civ III had two expansion packs (Play the World and Conquests) that each included new features, civilizations and units in addition to the scenarios just like Civ IV did.
 
I tried to play civ4 after that and it really felt odd with all that space on the map and no CS's to fill it up. Then dealing with stacks of doom. SoDs really almost made it feel like an RTS where you just crank out units and that how you win. 1UPT has more strategy since I have to figure out the flow of units and choke points are more real.

Tactics...not "strategy". The words are distinct and separate.
 
Tactics...not "strategy". The words are distinct and separate.

They are, but in this context strategy appears to be the appropriate word. The words are, indeed, distinct and separate, not mutually exclusive, and there's a reflexive tendency here and elsewhere to equate "tactical" with "not strategic" and vice versa, and the corollary to assume that because a system isn't tactical it must be strategic, and vice versa.

In this case the reference was to use of choke points and "the flow of units" (which I take to indicate where in the landscape you place them, rather than the tactical consideration of how you use them to support one another). Both are strategic concerns - i.e. where you do battle, what land you fight over, where you deploy your men. Tactics involve what your units do once battle is actually joined.
 
They are, but in this context strategy appears to be the appropriate word. The words are, indeed, distinct and separate, not mutually exclusive, and there's a reflexive tendency here and elsewhere to equate "tactical" with "not strategic" and vice versa, and the corollary to assume that because a system isn't tactical it must be strategic, and vice versa.

In this case the reference was to use of choke points and "the flow of units" (which I take to indicate where in the landscape you place them, rather than the tactical consideration of how you use them to support one another). Both are strategic concerns - i.e. where you do battle, what land you fight over, where you deploy your men. Tactics involve what your units do once battle is actually joined.

If anything Civ 5 is probably the operational level (simplified), or grand tactical. Unit placement is still tactics, after all. Of course, the mismatch in scope of Civ 5 makes these sorts of distinctions difficult.
 
They are, but in this context strategy appears to be the appropriate word. The words are, indeed, distinct and separate, not mutually exclusive, and there's a reflexive tendency here and elsewhere to equate "tactical" with "not strategic" and vice versa, and the corollary to assume that because a system isn't tactical it must be strategic, and vice versa.

In this case the reference was to use of choke points and "the flow of units" (which I take to indicate where in the landscape you place them, rather than the tactical consideration of how you use them to support one another). Both are strategic concerns - i.e. where you do battle, what land you fight over, where you deploy your men. Tactics involve what your units do once battle is actually joined.

On a quick tangent, I was always under the impression that "Strategy" was your overall plan and "Tactics" were how you carry out that plan. Am I even remotely close in this assumption, or am I way off the mark (or oversimplifying it)?
 
On a quick tangent, I was always under the impression that "Strategy" was your overall plan and "Tactics" were how you carry out that plan. Am I even remotely close in this assumption, or am I way off the mark (or oversimplifying it)?
Strategy is big picture, tactics is little picture - those are the general definitions, sure. However, in military contexts and video games, the meanings have tended to become a bit more hard-and-fast.
 
On a quick tangent, I was always under the impression that "Strategy" was your overall plan and "Tactics" were how you carry out that plan. Am I even remotely close in this assumption, or am I way off the mark (or oversimplifying it)?

No, that's a pretty good broad definition, but as the poster above you pointed out the distinction between what's your 'plan' and what's 'how you carry it out' varies with scale, and many people might therefore call in Civ V 'tactics' what would more usually be considered strategy.

For example, at the scale of an individual battle, your strategy would be your overall plan of attack, for which you would consider such things as where to deploy your army in the landscape and the general approach (such as flanking or encircling) that your forces as a whole will employ. The tactics would be the actual use of individual units, where they move, which units they support, when they engage etc.

At the scale of a campaign such as, say, the invasion of Normandy, which is closer to the scale we're looking at in Civ V, the distinction is more blurred. Strategy here would seem to encompass which battles you choose to fight and where, which is why I called that strategy, but you might also want to consider that tactical in the sense that you have an overall strategy (drive the Germans out of France) and a general plan for achieving it, however you might instead consider such things as which battles to fight to be tactical decisions because that's a case of how you execute your plan ("we need to take this town, therefore we need to capture this bridge first", for instance).

That's similar to the 'choke point' situation mentioned in Civ V - I'd say that's a strategic consideration because it falls into the 'we need to capture this town' category, as in "this is the area we need to hold". But you can also think of it tactically: "This is the area we need to hold ... because that's what will achieve our objective of preventing the enemy from getting access to the area on the other side".
 
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