I badly want to win Space on Immortal...

[dankok8]

It's not necessarily that I can't as I haven't tried but I think I would struggle. I find my tech lead slipping by the time I get to Industrial Era and I'm usually close to a Con/Dom victory so I just go that route. I've also gone for Culture and done so quite comfortably.

Can someone here post a map for me to try to win Space on? I may play it like a shadow game. I'm not asking for a stupidly stacked start but I would like at least lots of rivers in the starting area and either lots of room to expand to or peacenik rivals I can conquer or pacify easily. Continents is probably best. I could of course generate my own map but that is just not fun for me to play. I would like to play a map I have no previous knowledge of. Maybe there is an older NC map that is suitable...?

 

[Pangaea]

You can try to do an approach like I've done in some Hall of Fame games (but without the sometimes pretty "shiny" start). Pick a good leader like Elizabeth, or another with a good UU, like Persia (I prefer Darius). For the latter you need horses nearby, which can be a giant pain. Then smash heads and you have a great base to take over the rest of the map and then tech into space.

Or take any kind of Pangaea-like map. The approach is pretty similar. Wage war somewhat early to get a couple of capitals (almost always great cities) and take control of a big stretch of land. Get to Currency (this can be a giiiiiiiiiant pain at times due to all the land and maintenance you have early). Then get to CS and Buro (naturally you want a river-rich cottage capital). Make sure Mansa is in the game, and trade to your heart's content. Maybe get a vassal or two (like Mansa) and direct their research.

Either go with corporations or state property. Try to have some forests left in some cities for chopping into the late spaceparts. Maybe you even have a pretty forested region where you can stick a bunch of forest preserves for a totally kickass GP farm. Pre-chop all the forests and 1-turn life support or something like that at the end of the game when you no longer need 15-20 specialists or whatever it can support.

This is just very brief, but something like this is the general approach. I've not done a space race since I came back to the game yet (easier/faster to kill everyone). But it's not much more difficult on Immortal than other difficulties. In some ways it's actually easier, because you get more useful techs out of the AIs than on the lower difficulties where you pretty much have to research everything (aside from early backfills) yourself.

 

[dankok8]

You can try to do an approach like I've done in some Hall of Fame games (but without the sometimes pretty "shiny" start). Pick a good leader like Elizabeth, or another with a good UU, like Persia (I prefer Darius). For the latter you need horses nearby, which can be a giant pain. Then smash heads and you have a great base to take over the rest of the map and then tech into space.

Or take any kind of Pangaea-like map. The approach is pretty similar. Wage war somewhat early to get a couple of capitals (almost always great cities) and take control of a big stretch of land. Get to Currency (this can be a giiiiiiiiiant pain at times due to all the land and maintenance you have early). Then get to CS and Buro (naturally you want a river-rich cottage capital). Make sure Mansa is in the game, and trade to your heart's content. Maybe get a vassal or two (like Mansa) and direct their research.

Either go with corporations or state property. Try to have some forests left in some cities for chopping into the late spaceparts. Maybe you even have a pretty forested region where you can stick a bunch of forest preserves for a totally kickass GP farm. Pre-chop all the forests and 1-turn life support or something like that at the end of the game when you no longer need 15-20 specialists or whatever it can support.

This is just very brief, but something like this is the general approach. I've not done a space race since I came back to the game yet (easier/faster to kill everyone). But it's not much more difficult on Immortal than other difficulties. In some ways it's actually easier, because you get more useful techs out of the AIs than on the lower difficulties where you pretty much have to research everything (aside from early backfills) yourself.

Yea this makes sense. I've won plenty of Space Races on Emperor. Maybe I'm just overthinking this. Is there a map you can recommend?

I'll check out the one posted above.

 

[Pangaea]

Don't have any specific maps in mind; I've only been playing NC and now BOTM since coming back a few weeks ago. But a normal Pangaea should be fine. All AIs are there, so you can kill them in what order you want, and you can control the diplo (and stop wars if something gets ugly). No need for galleons and all that pain. Big and Small is excellent for a sushi-fueled corporations game, but prepare for micro HELL.

One thing you may want to look out for, though, is a capital that is riverside. That means you can build a levee in the later game, greatly boosting hammer output from the (probably still) Buro-boosted capital. Since the capital will likely build some space parts, possibly an engine, this matters a good deal. (Of course you can find other excellent cities for space parts, but that's unknown on T0).

Not a big difference between immortal and emperor to be honest. Immortal AIs start with workers, though, which naturally means they can improve their land faster -- but also means you can "borrow" them.

If you've won many space races on emperor, you can basically do the same and win on immortal too

 

[Qactus]

Victoria on a Terra map.
Terra as a mapscript is made for Space Games: Going State Property obviously offers great synergy when settling the new world. I like the exploration part of it, being quick and hunting for the juicy overseas spots. Victoria as a leader is strong here obviously, with easier settlers and extra commerce. Financial floodplains watermills are just later. Situation on the home continent is not without challenges, but offers huge potential already.

Spoiler Start :

 

[elitetroops]

I've been a big fan of lakes maps for space victories ever since I did my first proper attempt at an immortal space victory in NC 177. There's enough land for a big empire, lots of forests and usually many possible targets for early aggressive expansion. Terra maps are for sure great as well (one of the big benefits is that you can get Astro from a hut in the new world), but it feels like such a hazzle to ferry lots of stuff to the other continent and basically start a new empire over there from scratch halfway through the game... Big&Small with sushi and mining would be superior on slower game speeds, but hard to spread corps fast enough on normal speed.

Game plan is quite simple. Expand fast early, conquer a couple of neighbors, lib Communism if at all possible, then workshop everything in your 20-30 city empire. Then get factories and power plants asap. Not a chance the AI keeps up in tech. Cottages I'd only build around capital, the rest are more focused on production and fueling expansion as well as some GP farms. Once you get State Property the workshops are immediately productive and don't need time to mature like cottages. Make as much use as possible of failgold on your way to lib, as well as squeeze any gold you can out of the AI.

Attaching a good lakes map with a good leader. Not a super OP HoF start, but it's rather strong with lots of rivers and offers plenty of options for how to proceed towards a space victory.

Edit: Should mention I added two extra AI. There's so much land that the normal amount of AI is not quite enough. Also, save is NH/NE.

 

[Fish Man]

@Qactus

Terra is not usually that good for space. Having to get astro before you can develop a lot of the land on the map means that most of your cities will start late and not be fully productive until much later, compared to when you either found earlier on or take fully-developed 15-pop completely cottaged/workshopped cities from an AI that's nice enough to build every building in the game just for you

If you're talking standard speed, the most efficient maps for space are usually fractal, pangaea, or big and small. For fractal, reroll until you have a nice, juicy start on the same landmass as all or most of the AIs. Whatever you do, follow the advice of conquering to 60% and then using hammer economy to build wealth/research everywhere, as per the guide that I posted on NC246 a bit ago. On immortal, vassals are more relevant since their bonuses mean they can tech for you some even during the industrial era, for out-of-the-way things like biology, rifling, artillery, even fission or medicine at times. Also, on immortal, I start to prefer cuirs over trebs since AIs begin to reach engineering too quick and spam too many units for your trebs to tear through efficiently (unless I see many AIs that suck at teching or are particularly slow to get there).

Here are three examples of space race wins I obtained, all under t250:
1. Wang Kon on deity, on a map designed to be "prepare to die" except I used the AI's land to my advantage when I took all their stuff for myself.
2. Shaka on deity, on the NC @elitetroops described.
3. Mao on immortal, on a particularly food-rich start (this was an old IU map, I believe) - my strat was to roll through enough people with elepults and then trebs to gain critical mass of land, save attached.

 

[elitetroops]

If you're talking standard speed, the most efficient maps for space are usually fractal, pangaea, or big and small.

Pangaea I'd throw out of the window immediately simply because it doesn't have enough land even with low sea level. You also won't get many off-shore international trade routes, which normally would be the biggest benefit on a water map. Problem I see with fractal is that it usually generates quite snaky continents leaving most of your cities coastal. Early game this can be awesome, especially with GLH, but after communism water tiles are pretty worthless compared to land tiles. Producing space parts quickly could also be tricky if you don't have enough cities that can utilize their entire BFC for hammers. The other problem on a snaky continents type map is that you are quite limited in terms of who to attack. (This is also the biggest problem with inland sea, which otherwise would have potential to be a great script for space.) Big and small is an awesome script, but I feel it only really shines when you can fully utilize sushi, which is easier on slower speeds.

Land maps like lakes lack off-shore trade routes, but more land tiles/BFC means more forests on average/BFC, which I feel can more than make up for this as long as you put those forests to good use. As long as you don't start in the corner of a flat map there should also be lots of potential targets to attack in all directions.

Cuirs or even trebs feels way too late to me for war on immortal. My fastest immortal normal speed space victory (1515 AD, also lakes map) I took first two AIs with immortals, HAs plus some elepult for the third and was already at 20 cities by the time I got Engineering in 300AD. Without an OP early unit like immortals I still wouldn't wait any longer than HAs to get some wars started. Sometimes even use normal chariots to take out the closest neighbor. Getting an early extra capital or two is too valuable to pass on the opportunity.

 

[Pangaea]

Pangaea I'd throw out of the window immediately

Let me try on a cape first.

 

[elitetroops]

Let me try on a cape first.

You know, I almost wrote in a disclaimer that I meant the map type, not forum user.

You are free to use the door. Or stay and have a beer.

 

[dankok8]

Thanks everyone for posting the maps.

So far I'm leaning towards playing either the Pacal hemispheres or the Mansa lakes although I haven't yet looked at the saves. Both leaders are very strong economically.

I like Victoria on Terra as well but I won't play that because I think settling the other continent will take a lot of time and it will have to be a late Space victory which seems quite risky. Essentially I don't feel that confident with the Terra setup. I may play that one just like a general game at some point because I never played Victoria I think but not for Space.

 

[Qactus]

...Essentially I don't feel that confident with the Terra setup. I may play that one just like a general game at some point because I never played Victoria I think but not for Space.

You can also easily ignore the new world on that map and still go for Space, which will probably allow for a faster finish.
What I meant when I said that "the Terra mapscript is made for Space" was more like
if you enjoy exploring and settling a pristine continent midgame, then Space is the obvious victory condition - you wouldn't do that if going for domination.

 

[scheines]

I agree with Fishman - Terra makes for some tough space races because there are tons of land tiles. If you ignore the new world, the AIs will take it and end up with 20+ cities. If you chase after it, the cities come to life much later than normal.

Plus, everyone starts on basically a Pangaea anyways, so if you don't care for space on Pangaea, this is a similar story.

I personally like various continents maps for space. You can conquer your 2 - 3 neighbors, then hammer economy your way to victory with 30 cities. Potential threats coming only from naval invasions is far less dangerous than land neighbors.

 

[Pangaea]

A good thing about Terra maps and space is that they have a ton of landtiles. You don't have to settle the new world if you don't want to (they need loads of workerturns, fast). But since there are so many landtiles in the new world, you can fairly safely eradicate just about all AI cities on the starting continent without triggering domination. Which is then rather nice for going to space, because land is power.

Plus, the new world will have loads of forests, so you can chop out some spaceparts there. And try not to think about the space ship combusting into a ball of fire when you launch the thing

 

[dankok8]

@BornInCantaloup

I tried running your save.

Spoiler :

It's not a difficult map but it's hardly all peaceniks. There is Liz but then the other neighbours are Peter and Huayna both of whom declare at Pleased. Peter is actually one of the more backstabbing AI's in the game. Land is nice but I would probably just build up armies and conquer the entire continent because it's not safe to just tech with these guys on the border.

@elitetroops

I also ran your save.

Spoiler :

Don't remember the neighbours but don't remember any particularly soft ones. There is lots of room to expand. And what you said about Lakes maps makes me optimistic.

I ran my own offline game with Huayna and rolled a seemingly perfect map on the first try. Gold nearby and floodplains. It's Pangaea with almost all peaceniks (Bull, Gandhi, Pericles, Lincoln, Pacal, Augustus IIRC) so I'll be going to Space with that one first. Although Quechua romp almost feels too easy. My strategy thus far was conquer at one civ early with Quechua then no more warring for the rest of the game. If I wasn't clear in other thread, my goals it to win Space with like 15 ish cities not stop just short of domination and win Space. Although I may try the sub-t250 Space win from @Fish Man ... That's another fun challenge but for now I wanna win a standard Space win with 15 or so cities.

 

[elitetroops]

About the map:

Spoiler :

Asoka right next by with

Spoiler :

no copper

Do they get any softer? After that good follow up with Peter up north, one of the softer "bad guys". Usually a good target because the guys you want to make friends with tend to hate him. If you don't want to kill him he's not too hard to befriend with favorite civic bureaucracy. (I'd still kill him, annoying to try to befriend parties that potentially hate each other.) He's neighbor Hammy has same favorite civic and is easy to deal with, or can be killed. The better tech trade partners are still further away. Some potential trouble makers on opposite edge of map, but Suleiman on your left can be bribed at cautious against anyone he's pleased or lower with while he cannot plot at pleased himself. Get in a shared war against someone behind him and you'll be friends for life. Or get in a shared war and backstab him when he's army is far away.

Yeah, it wasn't designed for fastest possible teching with all the best tech trade partners (can't have that as Mansa anyway), as that can make the game harder. Worst case you have some run away AI that threatens lib. For an easier time you ideally want some wars going on far away from you that you can join in on for shared war bonus with your neighbors. AI starting locations were exactly as the map generator placed them, but with this bunch of AIs I don't think I could have placed them in a better way myself.

 

[dankok8]

@elitetroops

My point was that I don't get what makes the map you posted especially suited for a Space win other than the fact that it's Lakes and Fin leader. The neighbours seem pretty average. Not too warlike but hardly soft either. Am I missing something?

 

[elitetroops]

The start, very easy first target, then lots of room to expand or a good next target to attack. You don't need perfect settings for a space win, this would be more than good enough.

Didn't want to go all the peaceniks because that's not necessarily easier. For fastest possible space you want tech pace as fast as possible, but for first space it's easier with a bit slower AI tech pace. Having a mix of different minded easy to bribe AI is one good way to achieve this and also the easiest way to make sure you're on good terms with your neighbors. Apart from Darius all of them can be bribed at pleased or lower. Any target will also become a soft target if you can send their army elsewhere before declaring.

 

[Pangaea]

Haven't checked out that start, but it sounds quite nice from what elitetroops mentions. If you want an entirely peaceful game, you could probably just roll a half-decent Lakes map with default number of AIs, and be able to REX to 12-15 cities. Definitely possible if you take out one AI and go peaceful after that.

Probably the main thing when aiming for space, is whether you go for corporations or communism (well, after the possible factor of gaining as much land as you can, which it sounds like you want to avoid, which is fair enough). For corps, you need a GE for Mining Inc (plus a chap for one of the food corps). In both cases, it's about getting there as fast as you can, and then reap the benefits for the rest of the game, powering your way to a fast space launch.

 

[dankok8]

The start, very easy first target, then lots of room to expand or a good next target to attack. You don't need perfect settings for a space win, this would be more than good enough.

Didn't want to go all the peaceniks because that's not necessarily easier. For fastest possible space you want tech pace as fast as possible, but for first space it's easier with a bit slower AI tech pace. Having a mix of different minded easy to bribe AI is one good way to achieve this and also the easiest way to make sure you're on good terms with your neighbors. Apart from Darius all of them can be bribed at pleased or lower. Any target will also become a soft target if you can send their army elsewhere before declaring.

It's not my first time winning Space but it will be first on Immortal. I won a bunch of Emperor. On Immortal, I just never seem to go for it so want to spice it up a bit and try something new.