Maybe im missing something here but when I was looking through some old game of the month .savs (inparticular Starlifters 1 AD .sav from GOTM6) I noticed how far the growth had gone. I usually play on King level and it does not seem like a very long time before 1 AD is upon me. So how is it that Starlifter had almost every tech, control of most of the map and 45 cities all by 1 AD. Am I really that bad a player to be missing something here? It would appear my game has along way to go before improving to this level.
I can't understand such rapid growth
- Thread starter Biologic
- Start date
I don't think its that you are that bad but more like starlifter is that good.
The game is quite complicated and it takes time to understand and master techniques.Hang in there.
The game is quite complicated and it takes time to understand and master techniques.Hang in there.
I remember Star mentioned somewhere his strategy. He called it 'power democracy'. So I guess the idea is to get a democracy governement, then for all cities build up appropriate trade routes and city improvements. After everything is ready there should be a rapid growth. What you saw was the result of the growth, which might just happen in the last 15-20 turns (Before the rapid growth he could actually be slower than some players since he concentrated on preparation for the power democracy.)
Look into the cities, and see what city improvements he built; also check the trade routes to see how those were set up; then check what wonders he built. Then you may understand how that rapid growth was accomplished.
Look into the cities, and see what city improvements he built; also check the trade routes to see how those were set up; then check what wonders he built. Then you may understand how that rapid growth was accomplished.
I believe I am beginning to understand some of these advanced techniques but it came as quite a shock to see someone so far ahead in 1 AD. Although I usually like to build small empires which are easy to manage I have recently discovered the joys that early aggresive expansionism and mass trade bring. I don't expect to learn everything overnight but Im getting there. I've had civ 2 since it came out but I only considered myself a casual player. Only now after so many years am I really learning about the game and how to get those impressive 1000% plus scores.
Thanks for the advice.
Thanks for the advice.
duke o' york
It don't mean a thing....
It does depend on the start you get though.
As a rule, you should just expand like crazy until 1AD or so, but do not stop there! Keep the core empire producing the science and money and building improvements, wonders and caravans but keep the outposts building settlers so that you can grab as much land as possible and deny it to the AI. Remember that you won't get corruption from your city tile itself so the more cities you have, the better your trade will be.
Practice this strategy by playing on a large map with 3 civs. Just spread your settlers across the map for as long as possible while allowing your home cities to build as normal and you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Take out the AI as and when necessary - especially if they're on the same continent as you are.
As a rule, you should just expand like crazy until 1AD or so, but do not stop there! Keep the core empire producing the science and money and building improvements, wonders and caravans but keep the outposts building settlers so that you can grab as much land as possible and deny it to the AI. Remember that you won't get corruption from your city tile itself so the more cities you have, the better your trade will be.
Practice this strategy by playing on a large map with 3 civs. Just spread your settlers across the map for as long as possible while allowing your home cities to build as normal and you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Take out the AI as and when necessary - especially if they're on the same continent as you are.Marlos
Christian Soldier
Exactly. Don't think that all of us out here are this good.
Keep playing, learning, posting, trying new things, and you'll find that you'll enjoy the game even more. 
anarchywrksbest
Deity
Thats a bit of an understatement, he is always miles ahead of the rest of us in the GOTM. But it is Shadowdale I fear
And it does take time to master this game. I have had it for six years and only recently won my first Deity game
MUST KEEP WORKING, MUST KEEP WORKING, MUST KEEP WORKING
sav
King
Starlifter i think it was mentioned having cities of size 70?!!!?! sorry, but i must say what the ****?! i got a city to 24 once and thought i was king of the world. until it got nuked.
duke o' york
It don't mean a thing....
To defend my learned friend's good name, starlifter has never had cities of size 70 or more because he sees the food caravan trick as a cheat. It is a bit pointless unless you are after an enormous score, but he didn't even use it when he got the second place in the Civ 2 HoF. I presume that like most of us, he was pleasantly surprised when he first discovered the trick and tried it out in his next game, but then just gave up because it's not worth the effort for a few extra points.
You can find a thread in General Discussions whose title I have forgotten where we discussed the maximum (legal) city sizes and starlifter set us a fiendish quiz.
He'll be able to give a link to the thread if you can't find it yourself.
You can find a thread in General Discussions whose title I have forgotten where we discussed the maximum (legal) city sizes and starlifter set us a fiendish quiz.
He'll be able to give a link to the thread if you can't find it yourself.starlifter
Deity
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Biologic:
. Maybe the AI will fear me more, & cough up more tribute!
OK, you made me have to go download that archive (almost 2 megabytes on a 44K connection) and have a look. For those that were playing last year, it's the one where we start out as Indians and immediately fought the Vikings. I had 6 cities (largest=size4), 10 techs, and a tiny part of the map. That game was not one of my best, LOL!
I think you are referring to Shadowdale, who had 29 cities, 28 techs, and probably almost half the map uncovered. I just loaded his game. I never did fully understand his techniques, but his starts were always several times better than mine. I can say that his exploration was done, in part, with swapping maps with the AI.
A good thing to do is to read Succession threads... there are a lot of good Deity players here, and the we are actually all very close in "skill" level... the main difference is in micromanagement and time spent playing the turns. You can also join the Democracy game. We spend enormous amounts of time discussing various moves and strategies, and it is a very good way for people to at least learn what others are thinking. Join and post... but don't be afraid to speak your own thoughts. If you wait until everyone else has had their say, and then think to yourself "Oh, that sounded logical, I'd probably do the same thing", then you might not be gaining as much as you think, because the "little" things can wind up being very important.
If you get good at King, you'll be a good King player. Many aspects that are quite subtle do change, and I won't try and laundry list them... a person should play at what ever level they personally enjoy. If you want to do the higher levels, though, I'm strongly saying you should not waste your time on more than a game or two at King, and then move up... and if you get hammerd, read the posts... and ask questions if you're still stumped. There are dozens of people who will be able to help solve whatever ails ya.
Finally, remember that there are many styles to even Deity. You will see me advocating a very strong mid and late game, usually. If you want strong early game, go back and look at last year's GOTMs, and concentrate on Cactus Pete's and Smash's games... those are 2 very good & consistent early conquerors on about any kind of map. If you want to see strong and fast mid to late game growth, then Power Democracy is the way to go, and that's how I usually play GOTMs.... you have to combine speed and power, and the payoff is usually well after 1 AD. But non-GOTMs, I play somewhat differently, because there is no emphasis on speed... so tactics change.
Be sure and read the War Academy stuff and maybe follow the links in my sig block. Then just start playing... and concentrate on early game at first.
PS, I think you're looking for a Magic Bullet. And there ain't one.
I'm impressed with myself if I had that kind of start
. Maybe the AI will fear me more, & cough up more tribute!OK, you made me have to go download that archive (almost 2 megabytes on a 44K connection) and have a look. For those that were playing last year, it's the one where we start out as Indians and immediately fought the Vikings. I had 6 cities (largest=size4), 10 techs, and a tiny part of the map. That game was not one of my best, LOL!
I think you are referring to Shadowdale, who had 29 cities, 28 techs, and probably almost half the map uncovered. I just loaded his game. I never did fully understand his techniques, but his starts were always several times better than mine. I can say that his exploration was done, in part, with swapping maps with the AI.
You have more turns in a game at King than Emperor Diety , though Prince thru Deity all have 100 by 1AD. My advice is to simply quit playing King level, and start playind Deity. Don't drag it out. Instead, concentrate on one phase of the game, like thru Gunpowder, and understand how happiness works, how techs go, what wonders you should build, how to push/not push the AI, etc.
A good thing to do is to read Succession threads... there are a lot of good Deity players here, and the we are actually all very close in "skill" level... the main difference is in micromanagement and time spent playing the turns. You can also join the Democracy game. We spend enormous amounts of time discussing various moves and strategies, and it is a very good way for people to at least learn what others are thinking. Join and post... but don't be afraid to speak your own thoughts. If you wait until everyone else has had their say, and then think to yourself "Oh, that sounded logical, I'd probably do the same thing", then you might not be gaining as much as you think, because the "little" things can wind up being very important.
If you get good at King, you'll be a good King player. Many aspects that are quite subtle do change, and I won't try and laundry list them... a person should play at what ever level they personally enjoy. If you want to do the higher levels, though, I'm strongly saying you should not waste your time on more than a game or two at King, and then move up... and if you get hammerd, read the posts... and ask questions if you're still stumped. There are dozens of people who will be able to help solve whatever ails ya.
It's not a matter of being "good" or "bad". You gotta have a good time... it does not take "skill" to play at Deity... only knowledge & experience: experience at DEITY that is. Once you have the basics, are having a good time, and have a desire for higher levels, skip Emperor, and just go D.
Finally, remember that there are many styles to even Deity. You will see me advocating a very strong mid and late game, usually. If you want strong early game, go back and look at last year's GOTMs, and concentrate on Cactus Pete's and Smash's games... those are 2 very good & consistent early conquerors on about any kind of map. If you want to see strong and fast mid to late game growth, then Power Democracy is the way to go, and that's how I usually play GOTMs.... you have to combine speed and power, and the payoff is usually well after 1 AD. But non-GOTMs, I play somewhat differently, because there is no emphasis on speed... so tactics change.
Be sure and read the War Academy stuff and maybe follow the links in my sig block. Then just start playing... and concentrate on early game at first.
PS, I think you're looking for a Magic Bullet. And there ain't one.
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starlifter
Deity
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by Duke of York:
The largest city I have ever built in a game is size 43. It was natural. I rarely use Food Caravans (FC) as Food at all... but newcomers should realize the FC does not equal FCT. Old n Slow's Food thead in the GOTM Forum has a lot of tests with the FCT that I did a few weeks ago to finally nail down some things I've wondered, but not take the time to answer by tests before.
Just as a note... I'm not the most aggressive expander. Many many others do a better early job in GOTMs in expanding than me. But I'm not isolationist, either, and will steadily expand. I usually keep resources into some early wonders, and bit the bullet very early on, in order to beat the AI to key wonders. I usually avoid long wars in early game, but not always.
Actually, I don't consider it a cheat, but I don't like it in general. If someone ever wants to go for a really high HOF score (like above about about 16,000 to 17,000), then the FCT is the only way to do it.
The largest city I have ever built in a game is size 43. It was natural. I rarely use Food Caravans (FC) as Food at all... but newcomers should realize the FC does not equal FCT. Old n Slow's Food thead in the GOTM Forum has a lot of tests with the FCT that I did a few weeks ago to finally nail down some things I've wondered, but not take the time to answer by tests before.
starlifter
Deity
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by Xin Yu:
by Biologic:
That's a pretty darned good overview summary! My general application of that is to get into republic, and give priority to growth. Those larger cities then fuel the others with resources, esp. gold from trade. In every game, at least GOTM game, I will lag many of the best players until the ADs. If the game ended in 1AD, my finish would be low (on the other hand, probably not, because I'd use a very different strategy).
by Biologic:
I have some detailed, turn-by-turn logs which track even the commodities and values of trade (which is usually the long-term key for me) in GOTMs. Take time and read them: I doubt you'll spend more time reading them that I spent typing it for you to read. Also, read the Succession & Democracy threads.
I too am astounded by the rapid growth reported by many
of the veteran players. I have tried that strategy to no
avail. In my last game at King level, starting at 4000bc,
it took until 3100bc for my first city to produce a warrior,
then until 1850 for my first settler. In a game just prior to
this one, as soon as I produced my 2nd city, it was
captured by another civilization before a defender had a
chance to be built.
How do the veterans prevent their cities from being
captured early in the game?
of the veteran players. I have tried that strategy to no
avail. In my last game at King level, starting at 4000bc,
it took until 3100bc for my first city to produce a warrior,
then until 1850 for my first settler. In a game just prior to
this one, as soon as I produced my 2nd city, it was
captured by another civilization before a defender had a
chance to be built.
How do the veterans prevent their cities from being
captured early in the game?
rafisher, you must have been using an ordinary square instead of a special. In early games if you don't use special sources you'll be far behind. Keep in mind that every city you put down there is at least one special inside city radius, and at least half of your cities should have two specials.
I explore the map aggressively early.Or try to anyway.If there are any units stumbling across new cities,its my units and AI cities
This is the best approach early.Get in their backyard before they get into yours.Put down cities to aggressively hem in other civs.
You need to speed things up by spending your gold.Buy bits of that first settler by incrementally buying sheilds.Just buying the 2nd 5 sheilds of a warrior and then switching back to a settler will save at least 1 turn.
And yes it is very important to get good specials in those early cities.Not vital or anything but a couple of whales being worked early is a good way to get rolling.
Don't settle for the game's placement of your workers.Workers are generally asigned to the highest food producing square.Like a worker will be placed on a fish special before a whale.Go into the city screen and manually put your workers on the "correct" squares.
This is the best approach early.Get in their backyard before they get into yours.Put down cities to aggressively hem in other civs.
You need to speed things up by spending your gold.Buy bits of that first settler by incrementally buying sheilds.Just buying the 2nd 5 sheilds of a warrior and then switching back to a settler will save at least 1 turn.
And yes it is very important to get good specials in those early cities.Not vital or anything but a couple of whales being worked early is a good way to get rolling.
Don't settle for the game's placement of your workers.Workers are generally asigned to the highest food producing square.Like a worker will be placed on a fish special before a whale.Go into the city screen and manually put your workers on the "correct" squares.
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