I desperately want them to revamp old civs, to make them like GS civs

Stringer1313

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Anyone else desperately want them to go over the old civs and make them (maybe not all of them) as asymmetrical and interesting as the GS civs? (Probably Kongo's the only old civ that was asymmetrical/interesting, when they finally fix the founder bonus bug)
 
If nothing else, they need to use the Maori 'mobile start' mechanism to give the Scythians and Mongols a Nomadic Start on land. Historically, ALL the civs except maybe China. India, Sumer, Japan, and Egypt should start as 'wanderers' because none of them 'started' in the part of the map that they started building cities in: Greeks, Romans, Germanics, 'British' and 'French' cultures/groups all migrated to where they are now and where they were when they started building a recognizable Civilization.

I suspect without a 3rd Expansion devoted to such ReCoding, the revamping of 'old' Civs will have to be left to the Mod Community...
 
the dawn of man screen says your people used to be nomads but now are about to settle. at least in civ4..
nomadic start for scythians and mongols would be great though. they'd have to capture cities instead of founding
as a global mechanic, it could be a part of the system where all players should progress from nomadic tribes (barbarians) to city-states and then to nations..
 
If nothing else, they need to use the Maori 'mobile start' mechanism to give the Scythians and Mongols a Nomadic Start on land. Historically, ALL the civs except maybe China. India, Sumer, Japan, and Egypt should start as 'wanderers' because none of them 'started' in the part of the map that they started building cities in: Greeks, Romans, Germanics, 'British' and 'French' cultures/groups all migrated to where they are now and where they were when they started building a recognizable Civilization.

I suspect without a 3rd Expansion devoted to such ReCoding, the revamping of 'old' Civs will have to be left to the Mod Community...

Japan was a hunter-gatherer society for a long time only really settling down or form cities around 300 CE. The language however diverged much longer than that as it is disputed as to what language family is the origin of Japanese. It has hallmarks of Korean but also of Polynesian languages.
 
Japan was a hunter-gatherer society for a long time only really settling down or form cities around 300 CE. The language however diverged much longer than that as it is disputed as to what language family is the origin of Japanese. It has hallmarks of Korean but also of Polynesian languages.

Thank you for the correction. I based my statement on the fact that some of the earliest pottery has been found in Japan, predating Start of Game by thousands of years, which to me indicated that somebody in the islands was settling down long enough, at least, to make some pots.

One 'Civ-Specific' problem is how we define the earliest cities. Most, in size, were smaller than the average village today, but we really need a solid definition to differentiate between peoples that settle down for a few seasons of gathering or hunting and those that are more permanent. Unfortunately (for this purpose) there are very long-term permanent settlements that pre-date agriculture, relying for food on very lucrative hunter-gathering areas (US/Canadian Pacific Northwest, for instance) or fishing (including 'fishing' that required pretty large groups and preparations, like Whaling, which was being practiced long before Start of Game in Korea)

Once we agree on such a definition, we can also agree on which civilizations 'start' able to form cities. OR, a method which I prefer, All civilizations start as 'nomadic' and how fast they start settling down will depend on their situation: a 'Japanese' Civ that starts in the equivalent of the Nile valley full of wild grains may start the first City on the map on Turn 1, while an 'Egyptian' Civ that starts in wooded hills full of Game may spend several turns hunting and wandering before they feel the need to settle permanently.

This system, of course, would also require a rethinking of Uniques: if 'England' wanders off into a rainforest full of resources and settles there, 10 tiles from the nearest Coast, what good, or what sense, do a bunch of Naval Uniques make to that Civ?
 
Thank you for the correction. I based my statement on the fact that some of the earliest pottery has been found in Japan, predating Start of Game by thousands of years, which to me indicated that somebody in the islands was settling down long enough, at least, to make some pots.

One 'Civ-Specific' problem is how we define the earliest cities. Most, in size, were smaller than the average village today, but we really need a solid definition to differentiate between peoples that settle down for a few seasons of gathering or hunting and those that are more permanent. Unfortunately (for this purpose) there are very long-term permanent settlements that pre-date agriculture, relying for food on very lucrative hunter-gathering areas (US/Canadian Pacific Northwest, for instance) or fishing (including 'fishing' that required pretty large groups and preparations, like Whaling, which was being practiced long before Start of Game in Korea)

Once we agree on such a definition, we can also agree on which civilizations 'start' able to form cities. OR, a method which I prefer, All civilizations start as 'nomadic' and how fast they start settling down will depend on their situation: a 'Japanese' Civ that starts in the equivalent of the Nile valley full of wild grains may start the first City on the map on Turn 1, while an 'Egyptian' Civ that starts in wooded hills full of Game may spend several turns hunting and wandering before they feel the need to settle permanently.

This system, of course, would also require a rethinking of Uniques: if 'England' wanders off into a rainforest full of resources and settles there, 10 tiles from the nearest Coast, what good, or what sense, do a bunch of Naval Uniques make to that Civ?

these pots (earliest are from 13k BC) are from the Jomon culture, they were sedentary fishers iirc.
sedentary hunters-gatherers lived in the near east, e.g. Hallan Cemi (10k BC)
but the Civilization's city can represent a tribe of roaming hunter-gatherers as well, as their routes are typically looped, they return to certain places and stay in the same camp sites, and may have a base camp which may be occupied by at least a few people for the year round.
tribes can migrate very long distances but it's the same for sedentary peoples (e.g. Bulgars).
And agriculturalists of the Trypillian culture were migrating to another location every several decades
 
these pots (earliest are from 13k BC) are from the Jomon culture, they were sedentary fishers iirc.
sedentary hunters-gatherers lived in the near east, e.g. Hallan Cemi (10k BC)
but the Civilization's city can represent a tribe of roaming hunter-gatherers as well, as their routes are typically looped, they return to certain places and stay in the same camp sites, and may have a base camp which may be occupied by at least a few people for the year round.
tribes can migrate very long distances but it's the same for sedentary peoples (e.g. Bulgars).
And agriculturalists of the Trypillian culture were migrating to another location every several decades

Back when I was taking an archeology course (when a lot fo what is now archeology was 'current events', but I'm not dating myself much!), one of our first major studies was transhumant cultures, who moved between relatively fixed points. The tribes of the Zagros immediately preceding the development of agriculture in Mesopotamia, for the example that I remember all these years later, moved between summer grazing camps in the hills and winter gathering camps down in the 'flatlands' by the rivers. Once they learned to plant and cultivate the stuff they were gathering, they started staying put all year round.
This pattern is typical of a myriad of 'pre-city' cultures: many of the tribes up here in the Pacific Northwest had a seaside camp for the fishing and an inland/hill camp for gathering and hunting: exploiting multiple food sources seasonally. The tribes in New England followed a similar pattern: the Pilgrims looted a summer seaside camp near Plymouth Rock because they thought it was abandoned, not realizing it was simply a seasonal village site, not occupied in the winter when the Europeans landed.

Even the pastoralists were not 'wanderers': they usually moved between pretty well-defined grazing areas, and defended those areas or at least their access to them.

All of which encourages me to believe that the pattern of short-range, defined movement patterns for these 'semi-nomads' can be used to produce an Alternative Start for Civ: such Civs (maybe all of them) would start with a Gatherer or Tribal unit instead of a Settler. This unit, if not moving, can access any resources within a one tile radius, representing the tribe moving between various village/camp sites. BUT when it 'accesses' or works a resource, that resource disappears - depleted. some time later it will restore itself, but in the meantime, usually the Tribe, having eaten bare the local area, has moved on.
Let's see, every 5 - 6 turns the Tribe would grow big enough to spawn another Tribal unit, and each Tribal unit spawns with a Military Unit - scout, slinger or warrior, either your choice or random (choice is better - random is probably too much of a nerf). The reasoning is that in a hunting/herding group, virtually every adult male has combat skills: he's constantly using slings, javelins, or other weapons against game or predators.
Sea Resources next to the coast could also be accessed, because coastal fishing predates Start of Game all over the world.
Eventually, you'd convert one or all the Tribal units into Settlers and Cities, and based on how many turns since the Start this takes place, you would start with a certain number of Techs and possibly 1 Civic, so you would not fall too far behind in your wandering years.
Of course, while wandering, you wouldn't be getting any units more advanced than what is available at the Start of the game, but even that could be worked into the system: exploit a certain number of, say, Deer (hunted with slings, provide sinew, leather, bone and horn) and you could develop Archery while still nomadic; exploit a certain number of Sheep or Cattle, and develop Animal Husbandry or The Wheel. I would dearly love to have a system where certain 'nomad' groups (like the Cimmerians who raided the Hittites) in the late Ancient Era are able to field a decent military force without being required to build 'artificial' (historical-speaking) cities to flourish...
 
Back when I was taking an archeology course (when a lot fo what is now archeology was 'current events', but I'm not dating myself much!), one of our first major studies was transhumant cultures, who moved between relatively fixed points. The tribes of the Zagros immediately preceding the development of agriculture in Mesopotamia, for the example that I remember all these years later, moved between summer grazing camps in the hills and winter gathering camps down in the 'flatlands' by the rivers. Once they learned to plant and cultivate the stuff they were gathering, they started staying put all year round.
This pattern is typical of a myriad of 'pre-city' cultures: many of the tribes up here in the Pacific Northwest had a seaside camp for the fishing and an inland/hill camp for gathering and hunting: exploiting multiple food sources seasonally. The tribes in New England followed a similar pattern: the Pilgrims looted a summer seaside camp near Plymouth Rock because they thought it was abandoned, not realizing it was simply a seasonal village site, not occupied in the winter when the Europeans landed.

Even the pastoralists were not 'wanderers': they usually moved between pretty well-defined grazing areas, and defended those areas or at least their access to them.

All of which encourages me to believe that the pattern of short-range, defined movement patterns for these 'semi-nomads' can be used to produce an Alternative Start for Civ: such Civs (maybe all of them) would start with a Gatherer or Tribal unit instead of a Settler. This unit, if not moving, can access any resources within a one tile radius, representing the tribe moving between various village/camp sites. BUT when it 'accesses' or works a resource, that resource disappears - depleted. some time later it will restore itself, but in the meantime, usually the Tribe, having eaten bare the local area, has moved on.
Let's see, every 5 - 6 turns the Tribe would grow big enough to spawn another Tribal unit, and each Tribal unit spawns with a Military Unit - scout, slinger or warrior, either your choice or random (choice is better - random is probably too much of a nerf). The reasoning is that in a hunting/herding group, virtually every adult male has combat skills: he's constantly using slings, javelins, or other weapons against game or predators.
Sea Resources next to the coast could also be accessed, because coastal fishing predates Start of Game all over the world.
Eventually, you'd convert one or all the Tribal units into Settlers and Cities, and based on how many turns since the Start this takes place, you would start with a certain number of Techs and possibly 1 Civic, so you would not fall too far behind in your wandering years.
Of course, while wandering, you wouldn't be getting any units more advanced than what is available at the Start of the game, but even that could be worked into the system: exploit a certain number of, say, Deer (hunted with slings, provide sinew, leather, bone and horn) and you could develop Archery while still nomadic; exploit a certain number of Sheep or Cattle, and develop Animal Husbandry or The Wheel. I would dearly love to have a system where certain 'nomad' groups (like the Cimmerians who raided the Hittites) in the late Ancient Era are able to field a decent military force without being required to build 'artificial' (historical-speaking) cities to flourish...

transhumance pastoralism was practiced for millenia after the transition to agriculture, even in developed countries. afaik there are still some such herds in the north-western US.
it makes use of mountainous pastures which cant be exploited in winter. it is a form of extensive pastoralism, its extreme is the free range, which is conceptually close to hunting -- you don't herd the animals much (or at all), just drive part of them to the market once a year. as the free land was shrinking, pastoralism was becoming more intensive, to another extreme -- zero-grazing (animals are kept in the shed for the whole year).

depletion is a good idea (applies to agriculture too) but it is all about scale. typically an area sustainably exploited by a primitive community (a few dozens of people) is about several hundred km2 in size, thats about 25x25 km, less than 1 hex on the map. so 1 forager working 1 tile makes sence. some tribes of course were constantly moving, like seashore gatherers (walked from africa to australia that way) or big game hunters (walked across siberia and americas to cape horn?) but i think most tribes didnt move that much themselves but produced offshoots into the new territories, just in the way the cities are founded in the game.

We can have moveable cities though (with the loss of buildings), and maybe bonus yields for the resources which are worked for the first time in the game.. You'd be moving until there are no new resources in sight. And the whole system wont change much at all. Maybe at first cities should have a working radius of 0, then 1 etc -- rising with the discovery of say weaving (baskets!), pack animals, the wheel and other transportation technologies... For the sake of immersion the 'city' in general should be renamed to 'site' (or some more suitable word), primitive sites called (by the game) camps, anicent -- cities, modern -- areas (e.g. New York area).

what i think should be changed is that units can walk in the wilderness without supply. i think there should be some maximum distance to the home city or fort.
 
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