I don't dislike Christians, just the fundamentalist ones

[GenMarshall]

I am talking about what is a true Christian. And a true Christian follows the teachings of Christ. Christ teaches (passage above) that if you are a true Christian you will be hated by "the world" (the non-Christians). If you belong to the world (live and act as "they" do) you will be loved by the world, but you will not be a true Christian. Jesus says to stand out by following His teachings, regardless if that makes you hated. What am I not understanding?

You also have to remeber during that time also that Christians were being persecuted by the Roman Empire just because of their faith. This is a reflection on that if one is a follower of Jesus Christ would be persecuted and disliked by non-Christians just because of one's faith. The passage continues onwards (And I do suggest that you look at other lines other than just one passage since there are other bible passages which are related to the next).

The Gospel According to St. John 15:20 (Douay-Rheims Bible):
Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.

 

[Homie]

It means that while you think what you list there are the fundaments of the believe others see it differently.

What I listed (the passages) are not the fundamentals of the faith, I am not claiming they are. But they are passages that show that our faith calls us to be fundamentalists, fanatics, extreme about our faith. To be extreme is part of our faith.

 

[Homie]

You also have to remeber during that time also that Christians were being persecuted by the Roman Empire just because of their faith. This is a reflection on that if one is a follower of Jesus Christ would be persecuted and disliked by non-Christians just because of one's faith. The passage continues onwards (And I do suggest that you look at other lines other than just one passage since there are other bible passages which are related to the next).

The Gospel According to St. John 15:20 (Douay-Rheims Bible):
Remember my word that I said to you: The servant is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you: if they have kept my word, they will keep yours also.

Of course I look at more than one line, how do you think I got the passage in the first place. I read it. I'm not one of those idiots who go to church every sunday, digest what their pator says, but never crack upon a Bible on their own. I just thought that passage related to the discussion. Sure we are not persecuted anymore, and thats great, but it can still relate to our lives. If you follow the fundamentals of the faith you can be ridiculed and "not loved" by "the world".

 

[GenMarshall]

Sure we are not persecuted anymore, and thats great, but it can still relate to our lives. If you follow the fundamentals of the faith you can be ridiculed and "not loved" by "the world".

You are quite well ill informed. I guess you never heard of Christian persecution in Islamic Nations controlled by extremists Muslims? There is still Christian persecution and discrimination against Christians whom are a minority in the world.

 

[Shadylookin]

I often see this line of thinking in many threads here and in real life. So let me clear something up. Straight from the mouth of Jesus:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Pretty extreme? Fanatic? Fundamentalist? Wait, it gets better!

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Seem pretty fundamentalist for ya? Btw, this verse needs some explaining. Jesus is using a hyperbole, which he often did. He is not saying to hate our wife, kids etc... He is saying that we should take up our cross and follow him with such great dedication and love that our love for family members is like hate in comparison. In other words, He comes first, before family and friends. Pretty fanatic, huh?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Wow!

My point is. The ones you guys call fundamentalists, the ones you make out to be strange cases of the faith are actually the true, ordinary Christian that Jesus tells us to be. Jesus calls us to be extreme, not lukewarm.

Rev 3:15-16
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
(NIV)
So from now on, just be frank and say that you dislike Christians, don't specify "fundamentalist", because that is what a Christian is.

well if you have to do all those things to be considered a christian then the last christian died on a cross 2000 years ago and the rest of you are just posers

 

[Homie]

You are quite well ill informed. I guess you never heard of Christian persecution in Islamic Nations controlled by extremists Muslims? There is still Christian persecution and discrimination against Christians whom are a minority in the world.

Geez. I donated 2000$ to The Voice of The Martyrs. You think I don't know of this? I was talking about the western nations of course. And you are the one that said we had to read the text in its context, when the Christians were being persecuted. Thus implying that we are no longer persecuted. Which is why I assumed you were talking about the Western world.

 

[Homie]

well if you have to do all those things to be considered a christian then the last christian died on a cross 2000 years ago and the rest of you are just posers

Hehe. Alot of the time I do feel like a poser. There's been alot of great Christians throught history who really did live exactly like that though.

 

[GenMarshall]

Geez. I donated 2000$ to The Voice of The Martyrs. You think I don't know of this? I was talking about the western nations of course. And you are the one that said we had to read the text in its context, when the Christians were being persecuted. Thus implying that we are no longer persecuted. Which is why I assumed you were talking about the Western world.

It does not mean that non-Christians stop disliking or discriminate against Christians in the Western World. Non-Christians here in the western world do still discriminate and dislike Christians (Not all of them though), but none the less there are still people in the western world that dislike Christians because of their beliefs and moral viewpoints.

 

[Hellfire]

?? I don't think I'm getting through to people here. Of course everybody thinks their opinion is the right one, or else they would not hold that opinion. But what does this have to do with the OP topic?

Are you holding a debate or just trying to change minds? If you are debating, debate and make your case. Of course you aren't going to "get through to people" because most everyone's mind is made up on this subject.

I am talking about what is a true Christian. And a true Christian follows the teachings of Christ. Christ teaches (passage above) that if you are a true Christian you will be hated by "the world" (the non-Christians). If you belong to the world (live and act as "they" do) you will be loved by the world, but you will not be a true Christian. Jesus says to stand out by following His teachings, regardless if that makes you hated. What am I not understanding?

First let me say I'm happily an atheist. Second, I get along very happily with many christians, mostly because these Christians have thought about their faith and made many different interpretations. You are in fact doing exactly what fundamentalists do, which is:

1) Point to the bible and say "this is the word of Jesus and God and that's final."
2) Using selected passages to back your argument up and claiming "the bible" supports your position.

It just so happens your position is exactly opposite and you want to show why Christianity is bad. Organized Christianity, and most organized religions for that matter, are bad because of exactly what you are doing. You are oversimplifying the Bible and religious theology to a few catch phrases. This is bad, very bad.

Socrates once said that an unexamined life is not worth living. All of the Christians I get along with best, admittedly, basically feel the same way as me about most issues except one, they believe in God and I don't. Most are pro choice, democratic, pro gay marriage, etc etc. One of my best friends shares all my social and political leanings and has her own interpretations which she feels do not conflict with her christian beliefs. She is very pro-gay marriage, and passages in the bible clearly say a man shall not lie down with another man. She has spent much time reading and discussing the bible with her religious groups, as have many of my friends. And that's the key. They don't take any one sentence or set of sentences literally, and they don't all interpret them exactly the same way. Most importantly each of them has a different interpretation on what a true Christian really is.

The bible is known to have many inconsistencies and contradictory passages. It's not meant to be an instruction manual for life. It's meant to be read, studied, examined, interpreted, etc etc, lather-rinse-repeat.

You are taking the bible as a more literal and factual source than it should be. I don't necessarily 100% disagree with your conclusions, I just think you got there all wrong.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

In fact, the Christians you agree with and like, are likely only Christians in name. Consider this:

John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

See, this is why people hate fundamentalists, Jesus says that is just the way it is when you follow Him.

Why shouldn't I dislike people with a persecution complex?

 

[Neomega]

First let me say I'm happily an atheist. Second, I get along very happily with many christians, mostly because these Christians have thought about their faith and made many different interpretations. You are in fact doing exactly what fundamentalists do, which is:

1) Point to the bible and say "this is the word of Jesus and God and that's final."
2) Using selected passages to back your argument up and claiming "the bible" supports your position.

It just so happens your position is exactly opposite and you want to show why Christianity is bad. Organized Christianity, and most organized religions for that matter, are bad because of exactly what you are doing. You are oversimplifying the Bible and religious theology to a few catch phrases. This is bad, very bad.

My sentiments exactly. I have Christian friends, and I consider them the "true" Christians, because they live the life of Christ, not preach the "word of God"

And you want to talk about "hated", they are the ones you guys point to and call, "not true christians", because they might drink a couple of beers, or never attend church, or smoke cigarettes, or do not support president Bush, or perhaps practice elements of buddhism as well, or are mormon, or JW....

...but they are a hell of a lot nicer, kinder, and gentler (read christlike) than the sanctimonious and downright ignorant christian fundamentalists I run into all the time. Fundamentalists claim to love everyone, but it is obvious they hate homosexuals, hate liberals, hate muslims. Sorry, not fooling me.

In fact, I saw on the history channel, taking the lord's name in vain did not used to mean cussing, it used to mean invoking gods name to lay a curse or say what his will was.

to disagree with hellfire, most of the christians I know are pro-life, be they liberal or conservative.

Also to disagre, I don't think fundamentalists take the bible very literally, it is very vague in many ways, and they just interperet it to mean, they, and their prejudices, are always correct.

 

[MobBoss]

I often see this line of thinking in many threads here and in real life. So let me clear something up. Straight from the mouth of Jesus:

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Pretty extreme? Fanatic? Fundamentalist? Wait, it gets better!

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Seem pretty fundamentalist for ya? Btw, this verse needs some explaining. Jesus is using a hyperbole, which he often did. He is not saying to hate our wife, kids etc... He is saying that we should take up our cross and follow him with such great dedication and love that our love for family members is like hate in comparison. In other words, He comes first, before family and friends. Pretty fanatic, huh?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Wow!

My point is. The ones you guys call fundamentalists, the ones you make out to be strange cases of the faith are actually the true, ordinary Christian that Jesus tells us to be. Jesus calls us to be extreme, not lukewarm.

Rev 3:15-16
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
(NIV)
So from now on, just be frank and say that you dislike Christians, don't specify "fundamentalist", because that is what a Christian is.

Bravo! Very well said.

Untrue. Do you know what "Fundamentalist" means? Please tell me what "Fundamentalist" means to you without using dictonaries or encyclopedias.

Actually, CG, he is entirely correct and dead on the mark. You should be agreeing with him, not argueing with him.

 

[Neomega]

Jesus calls us to be extreme, not lukewarm.

fundamentalist right wing christians are lukewarm. They always find some justification for being unchristlike.

Who would Jesus Bomb? has got to cut deep, because you all know, deep down it's true.

If you were a Christian extremist, you would rather die than hurt your fellow man.

If you were a Christian extremist, you would spend all your time with the homeless, and homsexuals, and prostitutes and other unwanted people, and laugh with them, and love them, and hug them, and tell them Jesus loves them, and you love them. You wouldn't sit in your pews and think about how they were going to hell, and you certainly would not proclaim publicly you believed they were going to hell. Jesus loved every soul on earth, it is obvious fundamentalists have found "loopholes" in the Bible to bypass this.

Once again, they aren't fooling anybody but themselves, those who claim to "follow Christ" but hate homosexuals and liberals, and wish death upon muslims, are nothing but bigots and hypocrites.

The right wing fundamentalists are the ones living in Laodicea.

 

[MobBoss]

fundamentalist right wing christians are lukewarm. They always find some justification for being unchristlike.

I totally disagree.

Who would Jesus Bomb? has got to cut deep, because you all know, deep down it's true.

Every single fundamentalist christian I know decrys the bombing of anyone. People that bomb abortion clinics for example are not 'icons' of fundamentalism and yet, people like you continue to try and link them up. There are fundamentalist christians...and then their are nutburger crazy people who kill other people.

If you were a Christian extremist, you would rather die than hurt your fellow man.

Only up to a point. Apparently, you have even forgotten that Peter cut the ear off one of the jews come to seize jesus. Also, I seem to recall that Jesus himself put the wallop on a few vendors in the temple.

If you were a Christian extremist, you would spend all your time with the homeless, and homsexuals, and prostitutes and other unwanted people, and laugh with them, and love them, and hug them, and tell them Jesus loves them, and you love them.

I know scores of christian fundamentalists who do exactly this.

You wouldn't sit in your pews and think about how they were going to hell, and you certainly would not proclaim publicly you believed they were going to hell. Jesus loved every soul on earth, it is obvious fundamentalists have found "loopholes" in the Bible to bypass this.

Nope. Come on down to Tacoma and I will show you fundamentalist churches that feed the homeless every week. You have no idea WTH you are talking about. My church routinely participates in something called 'the Prayer Alter for Tacoma' in which they take a single day to pray for the city and its residents for 24 hours non-stop in what used to be one of the worst gang-infested areas in the USA...the Hilltop of Tacoma. Guess what? Today the hilltop is a changed place on the rebound with violence and crime down exponentially. The people living there recognize that people actually care for them and their neighborhood worth something. Fundamentalist churches help communities...not send them off the deep end.

Once again, they aren't fooling anybody but themselves, those who claim to "follow Christ" but hate homosexuals and liberals, and wish death upon muslims, are nothing but bigots and hypocrites.

Again, this is not fundamentalism at all. You have merely seen the Fred Phelps crowd and by default assigned their hateful tendencies upon all fundamentalist christians. Not fair, not right, and totally incorrect. You havent set foot in a real fundamentalist church that is active with the homeless and the community. And it shows via your own bigotry.

 

[Perfection]

What does that have to do with anything? I am saying that to be a Christian you MUST be fanatic, fundamentalist, because that is what the faith calls us to be. The faith does not call us to be lukewarm, in-name only Christians.

Holding such views is what corresponds better with modern usage of fundamentalism.

Sure. In this context, religion, a fundamentalist must be one who follows the fundamentals of his faith, even though others might think them outdated, stupid, wrong, etc...

Your definition is different from mine and therefore criticism based on it invalid.

 

[Neomega]

Every single fundamentalist christian I know decrys the bombing of anyone. People that bomb abortion clinics for example are not 'icons' of fundamentalism and yet, people like you continue to try and link them up. There are fundamentalist christians...and then their are nutburger crazy people who kill other people.

Nice dodge.

Only up to a point. Apparently, you have even forgotten that Peter cut the ear off one of the jews come to seize jesus. Also, I seem to recall that Jesus himself put the wallop on a few vendors in the temple.

Roman Soldier... to which Jesus promptly put put the ear back on.

And the ass-whippin gin the temple... the only time Jesus ever got angry... and for what...w as it because they were gay? muslim? liberals?

No.. it was because they were using the church to make money.

I know scores of christian fundamentalists who do exactly this.

I know Christians who do, but "fundamentalist"... no.

Nope. Come on down to Tacoma and I will show you fundamentalist churches that feed the homeless every week. You have no idea WTH you are talking about.

I know exactly WTH I am talking about. My mom is a fundamentalist and works in a soup kitchen for her church.... but she still decries homsexuality and muslims and says they are going to hell.

Again, this is not fundamentalism at all. You have merely seen the Fred Phelps crowd and by default assigned their hateful tendencies upon all fundamentalist christians. Not fair, not right, and totally incorrect.

Now you are trying to pin all this on Fred Phelps? I don't mean fred phelps, I mean here on these forums. Where people will tell a homosexual straigh to their face they are going to hell.

Where people wish we would just turn Iraq into a sea of glass.

 

[MobBoss]

Nice dodge.

Not a dodge at all. When was the last time anyone bombed an abortion clinic...and exactly which fundamentalist churches supported that bombing? You will find that fundamentalists as a group all cry out against such meaningless violence.

And the ass-whippin gin the temple... the only time Jesus ever got angry... and for what...w as it because they were gay? muslim? liberals?

No.. it was because they were using the church to make money.

So basically you agree that I am right and you are wrong. kthxbye.

I knwo exactly WTH I am talking about. My mom is a fundamentalist and works in a soup kitchen for her church.... but she still decries homsexuality and muslims and says they are going to hell.

That sounds more like you have mommy issues than any true knowledge of fundamentalist churches in our area. Why dont you try a sample group say, larger than 1 woman. You might get better results in your analysis.

Now you are trying to pin all this on Fred Phelps? I don't mean fred phelps, I mean here on these forums. Where people will tell a homosexual straigh to their face they are going to hell.

Hang on a tic. You said hatred of homosexuals. Who here is a fundamentalist christian who says they hate homosexuals? I most certainly dont. The others here that I would consider fundamentalist certainly have not. As for telling people that sin they will go to hell unless they repent, that includes far, far, more than just homosexuals, but all of us who sin. Is that even hatred? Nope, not in my book, its merely a matter of fact according to the word of God. Thats just how it is, and no need to be hateful about it.

So by all means, bring us proof of that hatred towards homosexuals you say happens right here in the forums.

 

[GenMarshall]

Actually, CG, he is entirely correct and dead on the mark. You should be agreeing with him, not argueing with him.

Whahhhhhhhhhhhh! I am confused! .

 

[Neomega]

Not a dodge at all. When was the last time anyone bombed an abortion clinic...and exactly which fundamentalist churches supported that bombing? You will find that fundamentalists as a group all cry out against such meaningless violence.

You know damn well the Who Would Jesus Bomb sign refer to war, the Iraq war, in particular. Don't play stupid.

So basically you agree that I am right and you are wrong. kthxbye.

Hey, interperet what you want to mean what you want. Doesn't mean it's right.

That sounds more like you have mommy issues than any true knowledge of fundamentalist churches in our area. Why dont you try a sample group say, larger than 1 woman. You might get better results in your analysis.

Right here on these boards. Many people evangelizing their beliefs.

Not to mention attending 3 different churches over the course of 10 years. 2 of which were very evangelical, and one was "power of faith" crap.

Hang on a tic. You said hatred of homosexuals. Who here is a fundamentalist christian who says they hate homosexuals?

I don't care what people say. People can say anything. I don't hate blacks, I just think they are all going to hell.

Oh wait.... homosexuals can help who they are. So I don't hate homos, I just think they are going to hell... you know, where the murderers and rapists go. Nobody is fooled by the claim of fundmanetalists that they "only love homosexuals, that is why they are trying to save thier souls", the hatred and bigotry is clearly evident.

I am sorry, telling people they are going to hell is not love. Nope... I don't care who says that it is... it isn't. Once again, nobody is fooled but the fundamentalists themselves.

Is that even hatred? Nope, not in my book, its merely a matter of fact according to the word of God. Thats just how it is, and no need to be hateful about it.

Justifications for hatred. It's obvious. It's clearly obvious to the rest of the world that right wing fundamentalists do not like, or respect gay people.

So by all means, bring us proof of that hatred towards homosexuals you say happens right here in the forums.

I don't need proof.... because everyone else knows it's true. We have all read the stupid drivel, ignorance and bigotry towards homosexuals, (and muslims) and we all know it certainly is not "christlike"

The only people who think their arguments are fooling anyone are when they say it to eachother, and fool eachother into believing they are being Christlike.

They ain't. Nobody on the outside is fooled.

 

[MobBoss]

You know damn well the Who Would Jesus Bomb sign refer to war, the Iraq war, in particular. Don't play stupid.

Nice dodge. Again..I ask the question....who do fundamentalist christians bomb and who supports it?

If you trying to say the Iraq war I will laugh in your face.

Right here on these boards. Many people evangelizing their beliefs.

Again, I ask you for proof and this is what you give me? Weak sauce. You make the allegation...now back it up. Give me examples of fundamentalist christians hating gays on this forum. Put up or shut up.

I don't care what people say. People can say anything. I don't hate blacks, I just think they are all going to hell.

No one here that is a fundamentalist says this. No one in any fundamentalist church I have ever been to says this. Hell, the church I went to for 5 years on the hilltop and served on the board of elders was a black church, my wife and I were 2 of the only three whites on the board.

Again...you have no clue...just baseless accusations.

Oh wait.... homosexuals can help who they are. So I don't hate homos, I just think they are going to hell... you know, where the murderers and rapists go. Nobody is fooled by the claim of fundmanetalists that they "only love homosexuals, that is why they are trying to save thier souls", the hatred and bigotry is clearly evident.

Do you think I hate homosexuals since I am a fundamentalist? Again, if so, I laugh directly in your face.

Justifications for hatred. It's obvious. It's clearly obvious to the rest of the world that right wing fundamentalists do not like, or respect gay people.

Its clearly obvious that most of the world have no idea what real fundamentalism is about. They are more than content to view a couple of stories on the media and attibute it to everyone, just like you have done.

I don't need proof....

And thus you invalidate your entire arguement. You dont need proof because you cant bring proof.

Which takes us back to the scripture that was given earlier. Such is the level of your persecution of christians that 'you dont need proof'. That is precisely why what the OP has said in this thread is directly true and you are a living example of the proof of it.