• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

Influencers

Birdjaguar

Hanafubuki
Super Moderator
Supporter
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Messages
55,595
Location
Albuquerque, NM
I read this today in the WSJ and realized that I was pretty much out of the loop on such things. It seems like something you all might be aware of and have opinions on.

What Jordan Peterson Can Teach Church Leaders
By Aaron M. Renn

Gavin Newsom is a concerned father. “I really worry about these micro-cults that my kids are in,” California’s governor told Bloomberg’s Brad Stone in an interview this month. “My son is asking me about Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson. And then immediately he’s talking about Joe Rogan. I’m like, here it is, the pathway.” Mr. Newsom isn’t alone in his concern about the exploding popularity of online influencers among young men—or in failing to see important distinctions. Some, like Mr. Peterson, offer relatively wholesome life advice on podcasts revolving around health, fitness, personal discipline and career development. Others, like Mr. Tate—who has been charged in Romania with rape, human trafficking and being part of an organized crime ring—peddle a misogynistic brand of pickup artistry. (Mr. Tate has denied the criminal charges and described himself as the victim of a ”witch hunt.”) What they have in common is that they’re finding a receptive audience among teenage boys and young men with a genuine desire for direction that isn’t being served by the hollowed-out institutions of traditional society. Mainstream institutions and authorities—churches, schools, academia, the media—could learn a few things from the online gurus about how to speak to young men effectively.

Young men today often feel as if their needs are secondary to those of their female peers. Society tends to speak about the well-being of men and boys as a means to an end. There’s a lot of hand-wringing about how a decline in the number of marriageable men makes it harder for women to find husbands. Some argue that male struggles cause a litany of social ills like crime and child neglect. Church leaders justify outreach to men as a way to reach women and children. By contrast, online men’s influencers seek to help men themselves, to show them how to improve as people and achieve their own goals. To be sure, some of those goals are immoral, such as taking sexual advantage of women. But many are worthy, like health or career success. Online influencers treat men’s hopes and dreams as important in their own right.

Many offer teenage boys an aspirational vision of manhood. Some, like Mr. Peterson, say men are important for the sake of others, but present it as part of a heroic vision of masculinity in which men flourish as well. “You have some vital role to play in the unfolding destiny of the world,” he writes in “12 Rules for Life,” his 2018 bestseller. “You are, therefore, morally obliged to take care of yourself.” Traditional authorities, especially in Protestant churches, talk about men being “servant leaders” but reduce that primarily to self-sacrifice and serving others. Pastors preach sermons wondering why men have so much energy left at the end of the day, or saying men shouldn’t have time for hobbies. No wonder young men tune them out.

Online influencers challenge men to work harder and get better. Former Navy SEAL Jocko Willink encourages his followers to get up at 4:30 a.m. to work out. But they also give practical advice and true if sometimes politically incorrect facts, such as those about the opposite sex. Men’s relationships with women are primal. Nothing enhances these influencers’ credibility like helping young men succeed with women. Teenage boys are hungry for information on what women find attractive. The gurus tell them it’s status, confidence, charisma, appearance and style. That’s the opposite of what they’re used to hearing, which is that women want men who emotionally affirm them and are ready to commit for the long term. Guys who go the sensitive nice-guy route only to be rejected can end up frustrated and bitter.
“Godliness is sexy to godly people,” says Southern Baptist mega-church pastor Matt Chandler. Jordan Peterson, on the other hand, says, “Girls are attracted to boys who win status contests with other boys.” Which rings truer to you?

Most of these influencers have built online communities that serve as mutual support and encouragement networks for their followers. In an era of growing loneliness and social isolation, teenage boys can bond over furtively watching Andrew Tate videos that their parents and teachers deem dangerous. Because the traditional authorities typically don’t have much of an organic following among young men, they don’t generate the same kind of community. Where they do have a male audience, such as in churches, attempts at creating community are often hokey and weird. Most young men aren’t drawn to groups that ask them to “ hold each other accountable” for watching porn.

An obvious if overlooked component of these influencers’ success is that they’re all men. It’s common, especially in mainstream media, for women to be the ones sounding off about men’s issues and shortcomings. In July, Politico published a “Masculinity Issue,” featuring four articles on the theme—every one of them written by a woman.

The good news is mainstream figures and traditional institutions that want to reach men can easily re-create the online influencers’ success. They can have men talking to and about men. They can acknowledge that men are important in themselves, not only as servants to women and children. They can craft an aspirational vision of manhood that includes elements of sacrifice and service. They can build men up with practical insights and advice, even when the truth is unpopular. And they can crystallize community around them. None of these things are objectively hard to do. Perhaps respectable society won’t be able to reach those young men who are only looking to hustle women into sexual relationships. But as the range of online men’s influencers shows, plenty of boys and young men are looking for healthy and productive leadership.

Popular online gurus offer young men a vision of masculinity that is both aspirational and realistic.

Mr. Renn is a senior fellow at American Reformer, a Protestant nonprofit.
 
:popcorn:
 
Basically hate them don't watch.

Here males are underperforming in schools and outnumbered around 60-40 at university.

And the jobs don't really pay like they used to. Women still like dating up economically.

As I understand it something similar in USA. You can't really start a family young anymore without condemning them to a life of poverty and struggle without parents helping out
 
Jordan Peterson is clueless about women. So many of those "status contests" are utterly pointless.
 
Jordan Peterson is clueless about women. So many of those "status contests" are utterly pointless.
I think men and women are engaged in status contests all the time. Men with men, men with women, women with women, it’s all like a big spider web of sometimes genuine competition, sometimes petty rivalries.

edit: one quick disclaimer: I do not listen to any of the people mentioned in this article or for that matter really any professional online people
 
Yep. It was a revelation to some of the guys on the first gaming forum I ever joined, nearly 20 years ago. They were carrying on about why women spent so much money on dresses, jewelry, shoes, makeup, etc. to impress men.

I told them that they (I say "they" because I'm not one of the women who does this) don't do it to impress men. They do it to impress/intimidate/one-up other women. The secondary part of that is that once you've intimidated the competition, they no longer have the self-confidence to compete for the man you want (or woman, as the case may be).

I dress to please myself, and if anyone - man or woman - doesn't like it, they have my permission not to look.
 
@Valka D'Ur then may I ask what you found disagreeable with Jordan Peterson? It seems like the three of us all agree on the basic premise.

We do?

I'm not into denying LGBT people basic human rights, or proper medical care if they choose to transition. There's a lot of Canadian political baggage with Peterson.
 
I thought we did until you added this:
I'm not into denying LGBT people basic human rights, or proper medical care if they choose to transition. There's a lot of Canadian political baggage with Peterson.
With respect, I was not talking about Peterson’s other views but just those that you had said in your first post about social status competition.
 
I thought we did until you added this:

With respect, I was not talking about Peterson’s other views but just those that you had said in your first post about social status competition.

I concede that people are into status competitions. I do not concede Peterson's notion that girls are attracted to boys who win status competitions against other boys... in general. Some girls are into that kind of thing, yeah, But that can't be taken to mean that all girls or women are.

Peterson's anti-LGBT views are political here. He spoke out against legislation meant to give them protection under the Human Rights laws and the Charter. He might tell teenage boys to eat healthy and clean their rooms, but that in no way excuses his political attitudes, which are reprehensible.
 
In the Old Days™ you'd go to your family, often multiple generations living close together, if you're a young person looking for life advice, or religion, or a teacher or some kind of mentor.

In the Current Year™ God is dead and you're lucky if you grow up with both parents at home.

Of course "influencers" will proliferate in these circumstances. Influencers targeting men get the spotlight because it's trendy to problematise masculinity in the current zeitgeist that passes for progressive, but I can't imagine things are much easier for women trying to navigate this strange new world, where they're simultaneously liberated and empowered and also not at all, and problematic influencers targeting women just don't make the news because women issues get ignored as always.
 
Nowadays, getting a world wide audience costs almost nothing beyond time and an internet connection. In the past it took writing a book that sold, getting TV exposure, getting your own TV network (preaching mostly), or establishing oneself as a radio personality. All of those were slow and hard to do. 20 second dance routines are easier. And then anyone with a substantial following becomes bankable. I wonder how many people worldwide make their living as some sort of internet personality.
 
I only know these clowns from reading about them in the news.

As for "influencers" :vomit: in general: Remember when the internet was just a place people made content for fun instead of money?
 
This could easily spiral out of control so be careful brothers and sisters. Be respectful. Ok I'm done with the public service announcement. :)

But seriously, when it comes to these mega YT stars one must be very cautious. It's easy to be deceived. Everyone these days is saying things that many people want to hear.

Without going into further detail, why not just go to the source directly and ask him what is the truth? :jesus:
 
In the Old Days™ you'd go to your family, often multiple generations living close together, if you're a young person looking for life advice, or religion, or a teacher or some kind of mentor.

In the Current Year™ God is dead and you're lucky if you grow up with both parents at home.

Of course "influencers" will proliferate in these circumstances. Influencers targeting men get the spotlight because it's trendy to problematise masculinity in the current zeitgeist that passes for progressive, but I can't imagine things are much easier for women trying to navigate this strange new world, where they're simultaneously liberated and empowered and also not at all, and problematic influencers targeting women just don't make the news because women issues get ignored as always.

One-parent or grandparent families are not new. They're just more common now. I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of snide looks and gossip and criticism simply due to having divorced parents, my dad having custody, and either living with him and his girlfriend (they never married, THANK GOODNESS) or living with my grandparents. That was 50 years ago, and the people who engaged in that behavior were my teachers, classmates, and the neighbors.

First, divorce was less common then. Second, my dad having custody instead of my mother... I'd have preferred custody to go to my grandparents, but my dad did okay. I shudder to think how life would have turned out if my mother had gotten custody.

None of those were considered normal in the '70s, nor even in the '80s. I remember having to do a "family constellation" assignment in my educational psychology class in college when I was in the B.Ed. program. I was just as baffled as any kid who had a family history similar to mine. I'd been part of so many different ones, so which one should I use? Not one of them was a basic nuclear family with 2 parents, offspring, and (maybe) the family pet.

For advice... depending on what the advice was for, I'd either go to my grandmother, dad, or a teacher.

As for god being "dead", it depends. Religion isn't relevant to my life other than I'm really not happy that the current provincial government is trying to do an end run around the Charter of Rights, which guarantees religious freedom (which doesn't include freedom to force beliefs on people via mandatory prayer and shoehorning bible verses into public schools).

Nowadays, getting a world wide audience costs almost nothing beyond time and an internet connection. In the past it took writing a book that sold, getting TV exposure, getting your own TV network (preaching mostly), or establishing oneself as a radio personality. All of those were slow and hard to do. 20 second dance routines are easier. And then anyone with a substantial following becomes bankable. I wonder how many people worldwide make their living as some sort of internet personality.

Most of the YT channels I follow now include a blurb about Patreon or whichever company is sponsoring their videos, or informing the audience that they can find CDs, download links, and other merchandise on Bandcamp. In the case of the Ecuadorian musicians I listen to, they basically do online busking in their livestream. It's interesting how many different currencies people use when giving donations.

One of the current houseguests on Big Brother is an "internet personality". It's good that she has a personality somewhere, since she sure doesn't on the show.

And here I am, not knowing WTF these people are.

You aren't missing anything.
 
I only know these clowns from reading about them in the news.

As for "influencers" :vomit: in general: Remember when the internet was just a place people made content for fun instead of money?
I read this today in the WSJ and realized that I was pretty much out of the loop on such things. It seems like something you all might be aware of and have opinions on.

What Jordan Peterson Can Teach Church Leaders
By Aaron M. Renn

Gavin Newsom is a concerned father. “I really worry about these micro-cults that my kids are in,” California’s governor told Bloomberg’s Brad Stone in an interview this month. “My son is asking me about Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson. And then immediately he’s talking about Joe Rogan. I’m like, here it is, the pathway.” Mr. Newsom isn’t alone in his concern about the exploding popularity of online influencers among young men—or in failing to see important distinctions. Some, like Mr. Peterson, offer relatively wholesome life advice on podcasts revolving around health, fitness, personal discipline and career development. Others, like Mr. Tate—who has been charged in Romania with rape, human trafficking and being part of an organized crime ring—peddle a misogynistic brand of pickup artistry. (Mr. Tate has denied the criminal charges and described himself as the victim of a ”witch hunt.”) What they have in common is that they’re finding a receptive audience among teenage boys and young men with a genuine desire for direction that isn’t being served by the hollowed-out institutions of traditional society. Mainstream institutions and authorities—churches, schools, academia, the media—could learn a few things from the online gurus about how to speak to young men effectively.

Young men today often feel as if their needs are secondary to those of their female peers. Society tends to speak about the well-being of men and boys as a means to an end. There’s a lot of hand-wringing about how a decline in the number of marriageable men makes it harder for women to find husbands. Some argue that male struggles cause a litany of social ills like crime and child neglect. Church leaders justify outreach to men as a way to reach women and children. By contrast, online men’s influencers seek to help men themselves, to show them how to improve as people and achieve their own goals. To be sure, some of those goals are immoral, such as taking sexual advantage of women. But many are worthy, like health or career success. Online influencers treat men’s hopes and dreams as important in their own right.

Many offer teenage boys an aspirational vision of manhood. Some, like Mr. Peterson, say men are important for the sake of others, but present it as part of a heroic vision of masculinity in which men flourish as well. “You have some vital role to play in the unfolding destiny of the world,” he writes in “12 Rules for Life,” his 2018 bestseller. “You are, therefore, morally obliged to take care of yourself.” Traditional authorities, especially in Protestant churches, talk about men being “servant leaders” but reduce that primarily to self-sacrifice and serving others. Pastors preach sermons wondering why men have so much energy left at the end of the day, or saying men shouldn’t have time for hobbies. No wonder young men tune them out.

Online influencers challenge men to work harder and get better. Former Navy SEAL Jocko Willink encourages his followers to get up at 4:30 a.m. to work out. But they also give practical advice and true if sometimes politically incorrect facts, such as those about the opposite sex. Men’s relationships with women are primal. Nothing enhances these influencers’ credibility like helping young men succeed with women. Teenage boys are hungry for information on what women find attractive. The gurus tell them it’s status, confidence, charisma, appearance and style. That’s the opposite of what they’re used to hearing, which is that women want men who emotionally affirm them and are ready to commit for the long term. Guys who go the sensitive nice-guy route only to be rejected can end up frustrated and bitter.
“Godliness is sexy to godly people,” says Southern Baptist mega-church pastor Matt Chandler. Jordan Peterson, on the other hand, says, “Girls are attracted to boys who win status contests with other boys.” Which rings truer to you?

Most of these influencers have built online communities that serve as mutual support and encouragement networks for their followers. In an era of growing loneliness and social isolation, teenage boys can bond over furtively watching Andrew Tate videos that their parents and teachers deem dangerous. Because the traditional authorities typically don’t have much of an organic following among young men, they don’t generate the same kind of community. Where they do have a male audience, such as in churches, attempts at creating community are often hokey and weird. Most young men aren’t drawn to groups that ask them to “ hold each other accountable” for watching porn.

An obvious if overlooked component of these influencers’ success is that they’re all men. It’s common, especially in mainstream media, for women to be the ones sounding off about men’s issues and shortcomings. In July, Politico published a “Masculinity Issue,” featuring four articles on the theme—every one of them written by a woman.

The good news is mainstream figures and traditional institutions that want to reach men can easily re-create the online influencers’ success. They can have men talking to and about men. They can acknowledge that men are important in themselves, not only as servants to women and children. They can craft an aspirational vision of manhood that includes elements of sacrifice and service. They can build men up with practical insights and advice, even when the truth is unpopular. And they can crystallize community around them. None of these things are objectively hard to do. Perhaps respectable society won’t be able to reach those young men who are only looking to hustle women into sexual relationships. But as the range of online men’s influencers shows, plenty of boys and young men are looking for healthy and productive leadership.

Popular online gurus offer young men a vision of masculinity that is both aspirational and realistic.

Mr. Renn is a senior fellow at American Reformer, a Protestant nonprofit.

It's called late stage capitalism and it's inevitable infection of telecommunications technologies such as the Internet, smartphones, apps, etc. via creating perverse incentives to now use such infrastructure to grift.

The early days of the internet being a revolutionary and subversive place are long dead, but the death was nevertheless inevitable considering such technology was created nevertheless by the late capitalist system. Just originally there was a wild west phase whereby the capitalist authorities didn't have everything figured out yet since their creation when young was highly experimental. Eventually they would have it figured out, and hence the closing up of the frontier, consolidation, imposed hierarchies, stratification, no more growth until eventually stagnation, and now grift to bring in revenue now that it's hard to generate revenue unless you're already one of the pre-established "big guys" like Google, Meta, Amazon, etc.

Gurus and manosphere types are simply tapping into a "forbidden niche" that for political reasons the big guys won't be willing to get dirty from delving on into. Quite smart really considering people like Andrew Tate or Jordan Peterson are too small for government regulators to care about screening. Meaning these men have found a way to tap into a lucrative pie that's essentially free real estate without having to worry about more professionalized and richer enterprises coming in to steal such a pie.

And that technically is how one is supposed to survive under capitalism once things stratify too much and become stagnant with no upward mobility from more growth. You have to tap into dingy and dirtier sources of income, delving into grey market territory, and if too much competition happens there, eventually black market territory. Eventually however you'll have no choice but to form an organized syndicate, mob, or racket and become a kingpin in order to consolidate and choke out competition once your in such black market territory (literally kill the competition so you always have a reliable node of wealth to survive).

So as we can see grift and eventually organized crime is a systemic result of a capitalist market that has reached it's peak and is no longer growing. This is true for the Internet because the entire world (including Africa) is now hooked up to it. This means things are increasingly rent seeking, speculative, and illicit as time goes on. Such a situation can only be solved by an eventual bust in the system (a market crash which causes the big guys to deconsolidate, allowing upwards mobility again for the little guys after the market recovers creating a post bust boom) or somehow growing the internet more by expanding it to the Martians (but since convincing aliens on other worlds to buy tryna or internet is not tryna guaranteed an eventual market crash seems more likely).
 
Top Bottom