I don't like the way City States work in Civ VI

[darko82]

• You cannot oficially protect your City States?

• There is no diplomacy with City States?

• You cannot really help them if they get attacked (I had good relations with Germany and 6 envoys in a City State. Suddenly Germany destroys that City States telling me it would be a mistake to protect it (after he took their city). How the hell was I supposed to protect it? I didn't even know he delcared war on them. Declaring war on Germany would give me lots of penalties. Plus, I did not want any war with Germany at that moment.

• City States can give you some bonuses only at the beginning before it gets destroyed by the AI. No direct way to influence a Civilization not to attack a City State (or maybe I didn't find such option?) or protect it in a direct way.

 

[DeutschDachs]

Darko82 doesn't lime something about Civ VI? Color me surprised!

I really like the CS system in this one more than Civ V. I feel much more rewarded and can pick which CSs match my objectives better than in V and it's not just about having huge piles of money laying around.

I do wish you could announce you were defending a CS though unless I missed that option. Gorgo attacked my buddy Vallenta and I was worried I'd get a penalty if I fought her on their behalf. Luckily they had a big army for a CS so I didn't need to worry

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They should allow the Protectorate War CB against any civ at war with your suzerain/cs you have 3?6 envoys with (as well as any civ who has conquered a CS)

 

[darko82]

I did not like that my City State that I liked got destroyed just like that

Anyways, the truth is the way it works is not good. Relations and diplomacy between city states and civilizations simply do not exist. There is a gap bewteen the relations that you build with civilizations and city states that get conquered by the same civilizations you have good relations with. And this is not realistic at all. No civilization would be happy about it. And this is not included in the game diplomacy.

 

[Ulthwithian]

OP: Well, Germany hates people who become Suzerain of CSs. It's literally Frederick's agenda. Generally speaking, crossing a Civ's agenda should have consequences.

Also, Germany gets a combat bonus against CSs. It makes sense for him to take them out.

This seems to me very similar to playing a Diplomatic type game in CiV against Austria and Venice. (Also Mongolia, to a smaller extent.) I believe the general idea with 'protecting your CSs' is to DoW people who would take them.

Reverse the situation, for a moment. If you had a military far in excess of what a CSs Suzerain had, and you had a bonus when fighting against CSs... wouldn't you take it out?

 

[darko82]

OP: Well, Germany hates people who become Suzerain of CSs. It's literally Frederick's agenda.

Strangely enough, he was friendly to me.

Also, Germany gets a combat bonus against CSs. It makes sense for him to take them out.

He did not need that bonus. It was a cultural city state with no army. Frideric came with about 15 units, so he blown this up in two turns.

Reverse the situation, for a moment. If you had a military far in excess of what a CSs Suzerain had, and you had a bonus when fighting against CSs... wouldn't you take it out?

I would not take it out in some circumstances. For instance, if I did not want to worsen the relations or have war with other civilization etc.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Strangely enough, he was friendly to me.

It seems to me from my experience with the game so far that that will go down very quickly. It seems that 'check for agenda update' pulses every so often. I doubt he would stay happy with you for long if you keep making up to CSs.

He did not need that bonus. It was a cultural city state with no army. Frideric came with about 15 units, so he blown this up in two turns.

Sure. Just saying that it helped for Frederick to come to that decision.

I would not take it out in some circumstances. For instance, if I did not want to worsen the relations or have war with other civilization etc.

Well, it's not like two people can win the game. Taking out that CS is both good from a simulationist perspective (Frederick hates CSs) and from a gamist perspective (it makes his Civ stronger and yours weaker). I'm not sure what to tell you.

Now, I do think that the game should tell you when the CS gets attacked if you're the Suzerain of it, yes.

 

[dexters]

I'm sure more diplomacy options can be coded in in a future expansion or a feature patch

The pledge to protect thing in civ5 tended to be more of a tripwire players set up or the AI setup against other Civs to initiate diplomatic incidents than a straight up diplomatic option.

I like that city state diplomacy is no longer tied to gold and the way influence is earned is a mini game itself

 

[redwings1340]

I like the way city states work, but I agree with your criticism. I feel like there should be an early civic where you can pledge to protect a city state, which would force any AIs who declare war on that city state to also declare war on you. A lot of people have complained about not being able to protect their city states without incurring a big diplo penalty, which is an issue in the game.

 

[darko82]

It seems to me from my experience with the game so far that that will go down very quickly. It seems that 'check for agenda update' pulses every so often. I doubt he would stay happy with you for long if you keep making up to CSs.

Well, it's not like two people can win the game. Taking out that CS is both good from a simulationist perspective (Frederick hates CSs) and from a gamist perspective (it makes his Civ stronger and yours weaker). I'm not sure what to tell you.

Yes, the relations had to go down really quickly in that case.

However, the fact that you cannot interact with (or influence somehow) a civilization about the city states breaks the immersion a bit. Just imagine this happening in real life.

A lot of people have complained about not being able to protect their city states without incurring a big diplo penalty, which is an issue in the game.

Yes, the big diplo penalty only makes the issue even more problematic. Quite a few people already complain about it. That protecting their city states is treated as severe warmongering.

 

[Ashbery76]

They should allow the Protectorate War CB against any civ at war with your suzerain/cs you have 3?6 envoys with (as well as any civ who has conquered a CS)

Indeed.

 

[dexters]

Just to clarify , you can Declare Protectorate War. It's in the Renaissance Era in the civic tree under Diplomatic Service.

 

[Browd]

Keep in mind that you had precious few options in Civ V. Pledge to protect only improved your relations with the CS you were protecting and didn't provide anything resembling a basis for war if another civ DOWed the CS that you were protecting. And allying the CS didn't prevent the AI from DOWing your CS ally, and those DOWs didn't automatically drag you into that war (thankfully--CS alliances could have been coded like automatic defensive pacts -- what a nightmare that would have been).

Your choices in each case were limited to denouncing the aggressor civ or DOWing them, with all of the accompanying "so I'm the bad guy?" warmonger hate. The Civ VI mechanics are no better or worse.

 

[darko82]

And allying the CS didn't prevent the AI from DOWing your CS ally, and those DOWs didn't automatically drag you into that war (thankfully--CS alliances could have been coded like automatic defensive pacts -- what a nightmare that would have been).

What I had in mind was a new system. Just my idea:

• The AI contacts you and informs you what it wants to do.

• You make a decison what you are going to do.

• There could be more than two options to choose from. DOW, WAR, OK, I DON'T CARE. This way you could influence what impact it will have avoiding any wars you do not want.

• Then after you make a decison, the AI checks again (in the background) whether it really wants to do that (taking XXX factors into account) and gives you an answer. Maybe it could decide that war in this case will not be good for them etc.

Pledge to protect only improved your relations with the CS you were protecting and didn't provide anything resembling a basis for war if another civ DOWed the CS that you were protecting. Your choices in each case were limited to denouncing the aggressor civ or DOWing them, with all of the accompanying "so I'm the bad guy?" warmonger hate. The Civ VI mechanics are no better or worse.

Well, I agree. With new city states in CIV VI, it is understandable why they left it out. It would be useless, basically.

However, they still need to do something about the warmonering penalties for protecting your city states.

Just to clarify , you can Declare Protectorate War. It's in the Renaissance Era in the civic tree under Diplomatic Service.

I am not sure how the "Declare Protectorate War" works in Civ VI, and if you can use it with city states? I am in the medieval era now, so I will check this out soon. But if it works with city states, maybe they should move it to the medieval era?

 

[CaiusDrewart]

The Casus Belli to defend city states comes way, way too late. Move it to the classical era. And have it grant a bonus envoy or two if you use it. The AI is really aggressive against city states in the early game, and the game isn't offering sufficient diplomatic tools to handle it.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They need to work with the request system

Civ 1 declares war on CS
Civ2 has an envoy with that CS
Civ2 is notified about the war
Civ2 can ask Civ1 to stop the war
(Civ 1 can comply or not...if it doesn't it earns diplo penalty with civ2)
(DoF should auto end if you don't comply with a friends requests)

Add on Protectorate War as a very strong reducer of DOW warmonger score and allow it if somone is at war with a CS you have ?3+ envoys in OR if they conquered a CS

 

[Dracul JOSHI]

OP: Well, Germany hates people who become Suzerain of CSs. It's literally Frederick's agenda. Generally speaking, crossing a Civ's agenda should have consequences.

Also, Germany gets a combat bonus against CSs. It makes sense for him to take them out.

This seems to me very similar to playing a Diplomatic type game in CiV against Austria and Venice. (Also Mongolia, to a smaller extent.) I believe the general idea with 'protecting your CSs' is to DoW people who would take them.

Reverse the situation, for a moment. If you had a military far in excess of what a CSs Suzerain had, and you had a bonus when fighting against CSs... wouldn't you take it out?

no, because I ain't an *******.

 

[darko82]

BTW, after taking out that city state, he declated war on me three turns later.

 

[lindsay40k]

Couple of questions:

- if you want to attack a CS, be it for Gorgo culture or Aztec slaves or XP farming or loot & pillage or conquest, is there a Casus Belli you might use?

- in diplo, is there not an option to pay another civ to make peace with a leader they are at war with (or vice versa)? Do CS names not appear on the list below the leaders?

 

[pietro1990]

The problem is that the causic belli's for defending city states come really to late it should be in the beginning of the game not at diplomatic service

I've ahd the same problem pedor atacked my city state i was ally with at the classical era i rushed to corsbowman and entered the medievel era then used the formal war option(denounce someone 5 turns) and atack them.

suddenly the entire world denounces me even though i didn't take any cities i just liberated my city state