I don't want to come off sounding like a whiner but man...

Yes - but they're all basically "one and only one" trait buildings now.... there's virtually zero mixing/matching and improving the AI isn't going to change that. A library had two purposes in IV -- it was a relatively significant early culture booster AND a research booster. Beyond UBs, there's none of that in 5 -- every building is a simply one-track multiplier.... Science... plus 50% science... plus 50% more science. There are no dual-purpose/multi-purpose buildings. Ergo, no real critical thinking -- if anything, improving the AI is just to go further to make it a rigid "science only"/"culture only" paradigm....

Why does it matter that buildings are single purposed from a strategic point of view? In fact making a building dual purposed reduces the importance of your decisions. What's the point of having to decide between a science building or culture building first when you can build one that just does both? You talked about interspersing a forge/factory to speed things up. How is that different from throwing in a workshop/factory to do the same? Other than now you don't get the happiness bonus from the forge so you really have to think about if its really worth it to you. If you want an extra bonus from your silver and gold then you have to build a mint too. When previously you might have built the forge for the happiness and the production bonus was just a nice perk. You don't get everything handed to you on a silver plate rolled up into one nice little package. Your decisions actually matter more now since you are not getting side bonuses that cover your weaknesses for you.

As long as research treaties remain, I'm not quite sure how one could possibly fall behind technologically. The only real difference I've found is that on King and higher -- the AI can keep up with me technologically.

Better AI would use research treaties properly themselves nullifying this advantage. Any advantage you can gain from research treaties can be equalized by an AI if its programmed right. For example maybe they would only sign an agreement with you if they are ahead of you in tech. Then they would actually get more out of the agreement than you would. They could also be just as active in trading with each other as you are with them. Again, the failing is with the AI.

But they become auto-pilot decisions --- in IV, it wasn't THAT rare to switch streams... A city I had pegged for a cottage farm or a production city might find itself building library because I needed the culture boost to keep it from getting swallowed by neighbors. Once you start down a building type path, I cannot see how an improved AI is going to change that. Like I said above, if anything - that just locks you in MORE to a sequential build because your city is never going to be culturally overrun and if you've started down the cultural victory path, you cannot really change course.... It's a limited menu of -- pick a peaceful VC and stick with it... or shift to a warmonger win. Since the UN and space race require you to go through the tree - I suppose science has a tiny bit of bleed, but like I said - tech treaties make it comically easy to keep up with research.

How are they auto-pilot decisions any more so than in IV? Your production city might still need to build a culture building so you can get more tiles to work (or even just to unlock more SPs) for example unless you plan on spending all your cash on buying tiles. How is that different from it building a library like you mentioned above?

I also find it funny that people seem to forget that IV had some sequential buildings as well. You needed a library to build a university, an observatory to build a laboratory, a forge to build a factory, etc.

If you decide on going for a cultural victory and ignore other aspects such as science and unit production a good AI should spank you back to the stone age. In order to stay competitive and not risk being destroyed by a decent AI (or human player) you would have to play a more balanced game. If you play a game against me and you build nothing but culture buildings in all your cities, and ignore science, or build all the science buildings and spend all of your cash on research pacts while ignoring unit production I can guarantee you are going to lose all of your cities. You have to play a more balanced game and not fall too far behind in any one area. A good AI should be able to do the same thing. Instead, against the AI as long as you have 2 or 3 units to defend you are perfectly safe. So now when it comes to that point where you are deciding to build cultural building number 3 or throw down a library so to not fall too far behind in tech your decision might actually matter. Instead of not mattering at all like it does now because the AI isn't going to punish you for falling behind.

Disagree. Once you crack the synergies, you've got the path. It's as simple as that. All I can see the improved AI doing is making it a bad idea to dabble in SPs -- for example, now -- since I'm a wonder whore, I do open the Tradition SP for the wonder bonus on the 2nd SP... Perhaps the bad AI allows me to do this sort of dabbling and a tougher AI won't -- but that makes the game worse, not better -- because it just reinforces the rigidity of "there is a single best answer". The beauty of IV was that there were "best answers", not any "single best answers".

Again, this is only because you can ignore other aspects of the game relatively safely. Yes you might want to spend all your SPs on getting you closer to that cultural victory we have been talking about. However if the AI is attacking you with a scary attack force and has all the unit upgrade SPs can you afford to ignore them yourself? Currently yes. Because no attack force the AI can put together is scary. If the AI were any good then maybe not. If you were getting slaughtered because the AI's units were getting double exp, additional bonuses for being near each other, and bonuses for attacking when wounded you might have to think twice about spending that next SP point in the piety tree.

Sorry, I have to disagree. Religion was multi-faceted -- like I said, there were aspects of diplomacy, commerce, and science baked into it. Now - those concepts are completely disentangled. Nothing cross over -- diplomacy is diplomacy. Science is science. and so on.

Actually no. Just as an example, city-states are just as multifaceted. They are involved in diplomacy, commerce, and science as well. Everything is there in the new mechanics just different. Of course the AI is crap at dealing with them properly though.

Such as? Can you provide an example?

I have 3 excess happiness. Do I let my production cities have them so I can work more mines? How about my GP farm to run more specialists? Or maybe I let my trading post cities grow so I can get more gold? You have full control over where your population goes now. That opens up so many more options.

Right now - happiness is just a global number that sits atop the screen... I pretty much ignore it so long as it stays positive. I know I'm missing out on GAs -- but I get ample GPs to trigger GAs manually anyway. By the time some of the bonuses show up - half happiness to culture, for example - I find myself running ~+50 happiness anyway.

If you are running at +50 happiness you aren't expanding enough (small empire cultural strats aside). That would be like having a happiness cap of 10 in CivIV but never growing your cities above size 5. You are wasting quite a bit of potential. However, because the AI is so terrible it is not punishing you for it. If you are going for a small empire cultural strat then yeah happiness is going to be much less of an issue, but there are other downsides to that kind of plan (low science, low production) that the AI can take advantage of if it didn't suck.

If nothing else, it most certainly seems pointless to put happy buildings at the city level... Hell -- might as well just give me a nebulous "happy buy" option -- because in those rare instances where I do need to bump happiness, what do I do? I just grab the first few random cities that don't have a temple or a theater or what have you and buy them.

Again, if needing more happiness is rare then the problem is you aren't expanding enough to reach your potential population cap and the AI isn't punishing you for it because it sucks. Try that against a good player that fully uses their happiness cap and see what happens. Also, if in addition you have enough gold to buy everything you want then its again because you don't have a large enough military upkeep costs and the AI isn't punishing you for that either.

The problem is you see being able to do whatever you want and being able to ignore the other aspects of the game as being a fault in the complexity of the decision making process. In reality its because you are not being pressured to make good decisions. Try some of what you are talking about against good players and I can guarantee it will go badly for you. It only works against the AI because the AI sucks.
 
I could have used some methods that the rules forbid to detail.
Yeah lets not go there.
I could have asked a friend to let me try his account while he was working.
Yes, you could. But then you are unlikely to have played enough time for a truly informed opinion.
I could have got it as a gift, like you said.
Yeah, sure. But which was it?
 
@AKKA

I'm not making excuses.
Uh, yes in fact, that's exactly what you were doing when trying to find EXCUSES for the game by saying it's unfair to compare it with Civ4 BtS because the latter had two expansions.
Civ3's launch was also plagued with a lot of the same slandering Civ5 is getting
- Too different from last game (tough luck, Civ3 was the right direction for the franchise)
- corruption sucked (they eventually toned it down)
- numerous bugs
- 'AI' don't work as advertised (soren fixed/patched a lot of it)
Yeah I know. I had to make my own mod to make Civ3 enjoyable, because the vanilla version was just not that good (corruption...). But despite its flaws, Civ3 made the serie advance, and included new concepts and gameplay inventions that made nearly impossible to go back and still enjoy the previous games.

Civ5 had the opposite effect : rather than continuing to build the serie toward more interesting mechanics, it cut them down and dumbed the whole game. Rather than having a game that may have flaws, but compels me to go forward and makes me unable to enjoy previous iterations because I feel something is lacking, it's the contrary : I have a game which compels me to go BACK because I feel something is lacking when I play THIS ONE.

That's a rather essential difference between the mixed reactions of all these launches.
Yeah lets not go there.

Yes, you could. But then you are unlikely to have played enough time for a truly informed opinion.

Yeah, sure. But which was it?
What do you care which it was ? Looking for a pretext to discard criticism ? Because I don't see any other reason.

Just accept that I can play enough to have a good idea about what I'm talking.
 
What do you care which it was ? Looking for a pretext to discard criticism ? Because I don't see any other reason.

Just accept that I can play enough to have a good idea about what I'm talking.

Hey, I'm just thinking its a little odd. I wasn't expecting you to be playing the game but here you are offering opinions on it. Look, if you actually own the game and can spend enough time with it to really delve into it then it would add weight to your opinions to say so. Since as you've shown, you can own the game without buying it then its not like you're conceding anything in the Steam debate to say so.
 
And were you certain you would have won before an AI won a science victory? I do believe you, by the way, but I wanted to check how certain you were. Oh, and the scary AI I was talking about is this one.http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8246/civ5screen0023e.jpg

Well thank God we got rid of huge stacks, because THAT is so much better...

I noticed this on my last Deity win - we traded road spam for unit spam. There is literally one...on...every...tile...
 
Well thank God we got rid of huge stacks, because THAT is so much better...

I noticed this on my last Deity win - we traded road spam for unit spam. There is literally one...on...every...tile...

Didn't you already hear? 1 Unit Per Tile (aka 1upt) was a design decision.
:mischief:

As it is true they had not realized it was never about the number of buildings in the cities as much as it was about the build order (opportunity cost someone mentioned above).

Even taking that into account, there were a huge number of buildings in civ4 bts that trying to build every one meant you weren't building enough units, or not building wealth at critical points in the game, or so on. It's simply ridiculous for people to come here and claim there were no hard decisions about buildings in civ4. Maybe it would apply... if they were playing Always Peace games.:rolleyes:

Agreed. Seems like some who are so confident that Civ5 is better and more complex than Civ4 hardly even have played Civ4. :rolleyes:
:yup:, or more accurately, didn't let themselves be challenged by the game.
Taé Shala;9719929 said:
/signed

Loved Civ 3. While Civ 4 was to complex for me (since i am no longer a student and have to work for my living :mischief:) Civ5 is a keen disappointment. :cry:
Used the quotet "strategy" and won every game until now. Thats not what I was expecting

Have you tried upping the difficulty a tad? Bear in mind that the corresponding difficulties in civ5 are generally being considered as a tad easier, so Prince in civ5 is a bit easier than Noble in civ4, for example.
 
Have you tried upping the difficulty a tad? Bear in mind that the corresponding difficulties in civ5 are generally being considered as a tad easier, so Prince in civ5 is a bit easier than Noble in civ4, for example.

Well, I uped the difficulty every game and the strategy works finer the more I get used to it. Try to get one city state to become hostile with the civilizations around him. Give him nearly every unit you get from other CS and some of yours. Watch him burn down the earth while you stay friends with every civ around :crazyeye:
 
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