I Fall Behind in Tech

[ripcord_tx]

Well, I'm a wee bit frustrated. 8P

I've moved up to Regent level. On the Standard Map size, I do OK. I usually win, though not always. I like to play random settings, and I've won through conquest, space rase, and diplomatic victories.

So I went up a map size (I'm not at my game machine - is that the huge map? The one larger than standard.) I'm still on Regent setting, still on random. And I get killed every time. I can explain the different ways I'm getting killed, but I'm don't know what the solutions are.

If I expand at my normal speed (typically letting cities get to size 5 before I build a settler so I have decent infrastructure and decent build rates). I typically forego wonders, though I sometimes make an attempt for the Great Library. My neighbors, though demanding, think twice before starting a war. The last island map my Greeks killed off the Persians, and my continent was comparable in size to others. By 1400AD though, I was hopelessly behind in tech. As I'm converting to Pikemen, my opponents are upgrading to riflemen. My opponents won't trade me techs no matter how many luxeries, world maps, gold I offer them.

I tried expanding slower, trying to build military and take what I want. This can work on smaller maps, but the civilizations are too spread out. I'll send 4 archers and 5 spearmen over to Rome but it takes 16 turns to reach their capital. If the force fails or they develop a swordsman, I'm toast. And I fall behind in tech sooner since they won't trade with me.

I tried expanding faster, trying to keep up with the AI. I can keep up with territory and with frequent trading in the early years I can keep up with tech. They sense my weakness though and by 100AD they all start declaring war since I'm poorly defended. They start to race ahead in tech at this point. It's like dominoes - within just a few turns, I'm at war with half the world.

I guess my basic question is this - how do I stay ahead in tech? I don't know to win a war when they have superior armaments. They trade better among themselves, and they snub my offers. I can intimidate 1 or 2 opponents, but the others still race ahead, then they intimidate me.

 

[WildFire]

On my regent game right now (i'm egypt w/ japan on my island) i fell behind in techs but managed to get the Pyramids so i didn't have to build granaries which saves lots of times. I try and keep my science relatively high so i can attempt to keep up. Then i went after literature because i had met about 7 other civs who were 3 or 4 techs ahead of me. So i attacked japan with about 15 swordsman hoping to get a leader to rush the Great Library so i could learn thier techs. Didn't work. Instead JAPAN got it in thier capital (Kyoto) so they got really good. But thier iron dissapperead so they couldn't make pikemen so after building up a huge force, i ran over Kyoto and i have learned about 5 free techs from everyone. Now i'm in front of everyone. Now once i get the Theory of Evolution (hopefully) the game will be fairly easy. That is how my games basically go. Of course, i was lucky to meet other people because my galley mad it across 5 sea squares without dying. Now, i'm ready to get education and make the Great Library obsolete

 

[billindenver]

I'm don't claim to be a great player. I play on Monarch, and win probably 1/2 the games I play. However, almost every thread on this site which touches on this subject will tell you that the key to winning at higher levels is to expand, expand, expand.

The most common build order for the very first city is warrior (or scout if expansionist), warrior, settler. You won't find many people playing higher levels who wait until their city reaches size 5 before building their first settler. Instead, you will find people who build settler,warrior,settler,spearman, settler, granary.......

Look around this website at some succession game threads or in the strategy articles and you'll see what I mean. Look at when they are founding their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th cities compared to when you do. You've got to expand early to grab resources and luxuries and prevent the AI from getting them. If you don't have 10 cities by 10AD, you will never keep up with the AI.

 

[Gothmog]

Re ripcord_tx: It sounds like you could use some alies. I agree with billindenver that expanding is critical. If I have a good food starting location I build warrior (for scouting), then granary! then settler, settler, etc. until all expandable space is used up. But you state that you can keep up in tech until the AD, and then dominoes. You need to bring in some civs on your side. If you have been trading with everybody all game (which you always should), then you should be Polite with many and even Gracious with one or two. Get a MA with them quick. Remember that a MA does lock you into 20 turns of war (unless you want to piss off your friends). Alternatively, just weather a defensive war. The AI gets in lots of wars but isn't always willing to devote themselves to it. Let them come, defend on mountains and over rivers.

Lastly, you cannot stay ahead in Techs at higher levels. Get over it and learn to stay one or two techs behind, it is much cheaper and will allow you $ to build defenders. Techs are much cheaper to trade for if everyone already has them.

 

[ripcord_tx]

Are you essentially establishing your 10-12 cities with 1 spearman each? I have troubles with the AI deciding I'm too weak and demanding something from me (tech, gold, world map). And he's right - over the hills he comes with a bunch of archers and takes a city. Sometimes this cascades and several civs declare war.

 

[billindenver]

Yes, that's pretty much the case, frequently just one spearman or warrior early on.

The AI ain't too bright though. It treats any units, even workers and settlers, as military when it tries to see if it's stronger than you.

As for the AI bullying you, you just have to suck it up and pay them, if they are stronger than you.

On the other hand, if you see someone a lot weaker than you, go to the diplomat screen periodically and renegotiate the peace treaty. You may be able to grab some goodies from them yourself that way.

 

[Allemand]

The map larger than standard is called large. The huge map is a little bigger, although it's not as big as it used to be. You should have more time to develop on the huge map, because the AI has more territory to expand into before turning to war.

Rapid expansion is the key to keeping up in the early game, I think. I always designate one or two cities to produce settlers and put a granary in at least one of them. I let the other cities develop, just tasking them for one settler when they get to 3 citizens, and sometimes exempting them from building settlers. If you are trying to build the pyramids then that city should not be weakened by building settlers/workers. I also task at least two cities to build veteran units.

One spearman (or one warrior) per city should be enough for your core cities, but border or frontier cities might need more protection. Walls are cheap and should be built in any border/frontier city that won't grow rapidly. I also try to have a backup unit handy, in case the AI wins a battle against my defender. Roads are very important and can mean the difference in gaining local superiority.

On offense, the early rush can be lucrative but is also very risky because you must gain something to offset the slowdown in development. If you get bogged down in a war, some of the other civs will shoot ahead in development. I sometimes pick a fight when I have horsemen or swordsmen, but usually I wait for knights.

One thing to consider: on Regent you can get a big tech lead when you play an expansionist civ. That makes it much easier to deal with the AI.

 

[BillChin]

On maps with a lot of room to expand early granaries help a lot. Try to time the completion of the granary one turn before a pop increase for maximum benefit. Getting this one move right can improve a player's initial expansion 20% to 50%.

Additional granaries, especially in river cities can help during the mid game because these cities can get to pop 12 quickly (use luxury slider to keep them happy).
- Bill

 

[DB_Terror]

What I usually do is have my cities build settlers, settlers and then some more settlers until I have colonized all the free space I have. Only if a city has less than 3 pop I'd queue something else, like a defender or a granary. My capital produces two warriors upfront, one for defense and one for scouting. The next cities also get one warrior as a defense but the outers cities get two spearmen. When I'm getting close to a neighbor, I build barracks in my fronier towns and start making military units to attack them.

 

[ripcord_tx]

No luck again last night. I managed to keep up with expansion and tech until 100AD. The Romans were streaming from the north to visit somebody south, but weren't interested in ROP. The English attacked from the south with around 8 knights and took a minor city. The Romans declared war on the English and took my city. I offered a MA to the Romans against the English since were were both fighting them, but they were insulted. Soon it's 1000AD, Im behind by at least 4 techs, and nobody will trade squat with me. The English get a MA from the Indians who attack from the west and take my largest city with a bunch of swordsmen and war elephants.

Behind in tech, losing territory, no way to trade. Since I can't keep up with them in tech, what should I be trading them? I thought about setting science to 10 and get a lot of gold to buy the techs, but that just makes them demand it from me for free.

 

[cracker]

OK ripcord, time for you to read the article and then rule the world.

Since you are currently playing on Regent that should be a level playing field in almost all areas. You shold not be bhenid in techs or behind in power to the point that other civs abuse you as their whipping boy.

They key is not in a magic pill in the build order but in how well you build and use the terrain power of your start position.

I strongly recommend that you carefully read the article on
Improving Your Opening Play Sequences and then very carefully follow the rules to play your own versions of a Guick Start Challenge up to 1000 BC. Save your original starting position at 4000 BC and then again at 1000 BC and take some simple notes in the Quick Start Challenge Timeline format. Then post the save files for comments. You will find that people will be brutally honest with you.

One thing that will jump out early is that you probably are not making good use of your workers and also probably not founding cities in a strong pattern.

Two or three attempts at a quick start challenge and playing some of the example positions in the article will improve your play skills a great deal.

 

[Gothmog]

You should be buying their techs, set that science to 10% or even off, and then trading the new tech to whoever doesn't have it. This works well when some other civs are at war. Check the tech level of all other civs, find a tech that everyone but one or two civs has. Buy it - then trade it to the one or two other civs that don't have it for other techs that you lack. Offer gold per turn and any luxuries or resources you have. You can trade a lux or resource even if you are left with none! If Rome was already fighting against the English then why ask them for a MA? You should have asked the Indians, or anyone else.

In my games it is not unusual for me to be behind four techs, for short periods I am behind seven or eight! By that time the techs are much cheaper to trade for and I move back to within one or two.

 

[Gothmog]

Cracker squeeked in before me, I agree that you are probably not using workers effectively. His article will help you.

 

[ripcord_tx]

I spent all day yesterday reading Cracker's worker articles. 8P

I'm pretty sure I'm not using them effectively. I don't really have a good feeling for the shields vs food examples - if I see a cow near water, should I mine or irrigate after my road. I've just started taking control of my workers early on and still have a bg learning curve there.

When my son plays, he tends to make nearly as many workers as settlers so he's well developed. I keep thinking that's wasteful but dang he can sure expand faster than I can. I usually have a worker for every 2-3 cities.

Part of what I'm reading here in this thread will have me trying a different tech tact tonight. I don't often have a lot of gold, and when I get behind in tech, I can't trade it since everybody else already has it. My instinct is to try to increase science spending to catch up, but perhaps I ought to lower it instead. Instead of researching futilely, I'll try to buy my techs.

I'll go find the "Quck Start Challenge" tonight and post my results.

 

[Bobolopolous]

I'm dealing with a similiar situation. Although I have a substantial lead, I'm behind in tech and low in cash. Schools out on this, but I'm thinking that I can leverage my advantage by slowing down production, and switching most of my civilization to converting shields into currency. This allows my workers to develop more financial infrastructure (roads, mining), while not increasing my expenses. Two things I hope to gain. One, I'll have more money to offer for other civs advances, and if this doesnt work I can allocate this increase in finances to my research. Just started a couple of turns ago and am already seeing appreciable increases in my total revenues. In fact to my suprize I just traded some coins per turn for Theology...

 

[Gothmog]

Personally I don't use the shield to gold thing very often, almost never before economics (which gives you a better rate of return but it still stinks). I guess if your infrastructure is lagging but you have all the city improvements then it might make sense. I try to ensure that I am never working an unimproved spot so that wouldn't happen to me, but I also almost never have a tech lead so... I would have traded for Theology and started building cathedrals.

 

[billindenver]

I was looking for this thread yesterday to post to you, but couldn't find it. It's Sirian's Farmers Gambit game. Thought you'd find it interesting.

http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/epic13.html

 

[PersianImmortal]

There is no fun in being peaceful..

Build strong offensive units, pad them with defensive units, pick a war with your neighbor.. u'll get technologies when they sue for peace .. and trust me.. it gets you much needed respect around the world too..

 

[cracker]

Bobolopolous,

Just notice your post about the "Wealth" feature and you need to cut that our right away.

Even if you are playing on the lowest and least challenging game level, building wealth is an absolutely terrible strategy in almost every circumstance.

We have discussed this in many other threads under the headings of "wealth" and "building wealth". Giving this out as advise is terribly incriminating that you are destined to be a game victim instead of a game player. The shield to results conversion ratio averages out to be somewhere to between a 16 to 1 and a 32 to 1 waste factor compared to learning what you need to do to increase commerce, research, and productivity directly.

Rethink your strategy and do the math.

"Never Build Wealth" unless it is a very limited and specific one time need.

 

[ripcord_tx]

What's your suggestion then for when you're behind in tech and low on cash? You'll never catch up to the AI by researching on your own, and you can't buy it without the cash.

Let's say it's around 500AD, you're a monarchy with science set at around 40%. You're researching Currency in 16 turns. You have 100 gold in the bank, making 10 per turn. You contact all the other Civs, and they already have Currency, Republic, and 2 or 3 other techs. You have nothing to offer them. What do you do? Wait the 16 turns for Currency, or attempt to purchase it by turning tech to 0?

I guess you're telling me it's more cost effective to suck it up and research it on my own. My spearmen are usually attacked by the AI's calvary soon after this. That's what prompted this thread in the first place.