I hate god

[Quasar1011]

But then where did this stuff about humans being fundamentally good come from? Which is it?

Humans are not now fundamentally good. Humans are born tainted with sin.

Mark 10:17-18
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

But when God created the first humans, humanity was good- even "very good".

Genesis 1:27,31
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

The fall of man caused mankind to gain a sin nature. It is that sin nature that father passes down to child, in every generation since creation.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

The good news is, that there is now a way for men's sins to not be held against them!

Romans 8:1
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...

 

[Fifty]

Anybody interested in the most thorough and up to date treatment of the problem of evil should read The Problem of Evil by Peter van Inwagen.

Inwagen comes to the conclusion that the problem of evil does not present a problem to certain sorts of theism, I believe.

Or if you're still interested in an academic overview of it but aren't necessarily interested in a whole book, check out this entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Wow Fifty, you sure are diving headfirst into philosophy these days. A possible university minor?

 

[useless]

i hate god. he sure as hell didnt lift his arse to stop any wars or the holocaust so therefore he is evil.

 

[drkodos]

i hate god. he sure as hell didnt lift his arse to stop any wars or the holocaust so therefore he is evil.

But he does bless those certain sports teams and players that need the victory to make the playoffs.

 

[Fifty]

Wow Fifty, you sure are diving headfirst into philosophy these days. A possible university minor?

Right now it looks like a double major in philosophy and economics with a tentative plan to minor in math.

 

[Nick Garai]

Anybody interested in the most thorough and up to date treatment of the problem of evil should read The Problem of Evil by Peter van Inwagen.

Inwagen comes to the conclusion that the problem of evil does not present a problem to certain sorts of theism, I believe.

Or if you're still interested in an academic overview of it but aren't necessarily interested in a whole book, check out this entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

For persons who want to pursue those kinds of arguments (I have not read these books) the counterargument is this:

Colossians 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. " (NIV)

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

Right now it looks like a double major in philosophy and economics with a tentative plan to minor in math.

That actually sounds like a good plan, even for the job market. As long as you work hard to find a niche for yourself. Math provides you with logical skills, economics lets you apply that logic, and philosophy will help you express yourself (logically) in a written form.

 

[Fifty]

Colossians 2:8
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. " (NIV)

Which is funny considering how much Christian doctrine is based on the ideas of various philosophers.

I will agree, though, that belief that acknowledges it is based on faith and not reason needs no philosophy.

That actually sounds like a good plan, even for the job market. As long as you work hard to find a niche for yourself. Math provides you with logical skills, economics lets you apply that logic, and philosophy will help you express yourself (logically) in a written form.

It's also good for people (points at self) who have no idea what they want to do with their life and thus want to leave several options open.

 

[BEHIND_THE_MASK]

if there is a god and one day Im dead and standing before him and he tells me... "Well wat do u have to say for urself..."


Well, I'm going to slap him then wag my finger at him "Shame on u... shame one u, u bastard. Where were u during the holocaust... lunch break? Thats no excuse... U naughty lil bastard."

*if i've offended anyone well let me explain this to u with a riddle*

Tick Tock Tick Tock

Wats that. Its the sound of how long Im not giving a damn, o look its still going.

Tick Tock...

 

[Nick Garai]

if there is a god and one day Im dead and standing before him and he tells me... "Well wat do u have to say for urself..."


Well, I'm going to slap him then wag my finger at him "Shame on u... shame one u, u bastard. Where were u during the holocaust... lunch break? Thats no excuse... U naughty lil bastard."

*if i've offended anyone well let me explain this to u with a riddle*

Tick Tock Tick Tock

Wats that. Its the sound of how long Im not giving a damn, o look its still going.

Tick Tock...

Good point... (please remember there is no angry tone here)

Okay so where was He during the Holocaust of the Unborn which has been going on for thousands of years? What about during the regime of Pol Pot (or Pot Pol, I forget how it is spelled) when MILLIONS were killed or when Dresden was bombed to hell and infants in nurseries were liquified into puddles of liquid flesh? Or when Settlers of the Early Americas decimated the native peoples providing typhoid infected blankets for them and killing off the buffalo herds? Pretty grotesque eh, from a loving God?

Okay, here's the response... He was always there and because He is loving He allowed it to happen. He never left. God ALLOWS a world to exist if it doesn't want Him. It wants to get rid of Him so that it can govern itself and fail over and over and over again. That is what is going to happen when human governments want to live without God. Fascist Germany was NOT under any blessing from God. Comunism was not under any blessing from God. Even Democratic governments aren't. Human governments are infallible and by their nature corrupt.

If people do NOT want to have God as the one to govern them, then what is God supposed to do? Intervene and take away the responsibility from us who choose NOT to have His authority?

It IS a loving God who allowed those atrocious acts of history to occur. God can also use others and other governments to end these acts of evil.

 

[Stylesjl]

Actually free will is more closely linked to omniscience than omnipotence. Reconciling free will with an all-knowing god can be complicated.

Why do you say that the laws of logic supercede omnipotence?
Why coudn't an all powerful god limits his power in some way?
Why does what we define as evil have to be defined by god as evil?

I forgot to answer this

1) Because logic shows something is impossible as we define it

Say for example god creates an object that is unstoppable and another object that is unmovable. Such an event would be logically impossible because one of those things must be false (the object is either moveable or the other object is stoppable in the event of a collision)

God could change how we define something but in the end logic is logic. The object will either move or the other object stop

2)Perhaps, and the above example could be how

3) It makes god evil (In my personal defintion of evil as well as the definition of evil by others). Hence while god may not be evil ultimately (evil is simply a subjective term) he is definetly evil by the definition of evil by humans

 

[Nick Garai]

3) It makes god evil (In my personal defintion of evil as well as the definition of evil by others). Hence while god may not be evil ultimately (evil is simply a subjective term) he is definetly evil by the definition of evil by humans

Never thought of looking at that, that way. A good argument from a human perspective.

Nicely said!

 

[BasketCase]

I don't beleive in god, but you know something, even if he did exist I would hate him.

Why? Because if god created the universe, then he created, sin, bad people, and evil. Then he punishes those whom he created that way by sending them to hell for all eternity.

It's like making a computer program, knowing everything about it, and having absolute control over it's actions, and then punishing it for something you made it do!

As a software developer, I can speak from experience.

That's not at all how it works.

Here's how it really works. You write a program to do something good. Like sort a list of books by alphabetical order for you. You write the code, compile it, and test it. And you discover the code has a bug in it--and that it just overwrote each title in your list with the first entry. Pow, your data just got destroyed. Better hope you made a backup.

You don't plan for the code to screw up.


You meet the girl of your dreams. You date her, fall hopelessly in love, marry her, and take her to bed. She bears you a son. Twenty years later, your son robs a liquor store and shoots the cashier in the head.

You don't plan for your child to be a murdererer. It's something that, once in a while, will happen despite the best efforts of the parents. You did not create the murderer. You only created a child. The child committed the murder all by himself.


God didn't create pain and suffering. We did.

 

[Nick Garai]

Nice! I like that!!! Well said!

 

[Pyrite]

Unlike god, programmers aren't omniscient. It'd be as if the god was the programmer of windows and said, yeah it really sucks, let's release it anyways.

 

[Nick Garai]

So what are you SAYING? That Bill Gates isn't God!!

LOL

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

You write a program to do something good. Like sort a list of books by alphabetical order for you. You write the code, compile it, and test it. And you discover the code has a bug in it--and that it just overwrote each title in your list with the first entry. Pow, your data just got destroyed. Better hope you made a backup.

You don't plan for the code to screw up.

No you didn't, you planned for it to work perfectly. Its failure was a result of your fallibility. Are implying that God is fallible?

 

[Nick Garai]

No you didn't, you planned for it to work perfectly. Its failure was a result of your fallibility. Are implying that God is fallible?

God allows for that to happen. It is a choice made by those given the gift of free will to make that choice. God knew what was going to happen and allowed it. He could have also not made anything or anyone.

 

[Pyrite]

Thats a rather puerile explanation that's simply not surprising coming from people who believe that humanity is inherantly flawed and doomed to damnation if not for the help from outside powers.