I just DON'T GET combat tactics!

[Kuma_Pageworks]

Argh!

So I've settled into BtS and I'm doing GREAT with the peacetime game - good management, great results.

Then someone declares war on me, and the whole thing turns to crap.

I just CANNOT get my head wrapped around how combat works. I mean, I try and bombard Stacks O Doom with Catapults, and they race out and slam them into the ground. I see archers on top and move in with Macemen, and they get creamed. I Alt-check a stack and see it as 80% in my favor, then get WIPED OUT. What I need help with is:

I realize you need to 'counter' a stack - but how do you do that when the units that line up to defend against your attacker seem to pop out at random?

Why do I keep losing so egregiously? I've looked for tips in the War Academy, but they're all large-scale issues, not tactics.

 

[El Koeno]

Argh!
I realize you need to 'counter' a stack - but how do you do that when the units that line up to defend against your attacker seem to pop out at random?

Actually the strongest defender is chosen. This makes attacking a well-mixed stack pretty difficult.

Some tips I have are:
Pick your battlefields. If he has a huge stack, let him attack a well defended city on a hill with it, while you gather forces for a counter attack on his stack.

Preferably he's worn his stack out on your well-defended city, although this might be risk you can't take and you need to take him out fast. Do so when he's not on easily defensible terrain (e.g. forested hills). Start with a LOT of cats, to wear him down. After that just check every unit you have to see which one gets the best odds for the attack. If none looks like they'll make it, I usually send in some cannon fodder, until my elite units get good odds.

Note that you'll always lose a few 80% battles. It's only a 4 in 5 chance you'll win, and a big stack can take more than 10 battles to take out. So don't get attached to those super-elite units.

 

[kazapp]

One tactic I've realized gives so good results as almost be abusive, is that when your stack of doom is approached by the AI's even larger stack of doom; then you retreat back outside of your city.

Instead of getting creamed because of all those cats/trebs/cannon/arty with immense city attack bonuses; he takes the city and then you can easily cream him because of your own cats/trebs/cannon/arty and their immense city attack bonuses.

To be honest the AI falls for this trick every time (an empty defenseless city is apparently too sweet to ever consider a trap) - I can easily replace the odd unit lost while he loses his entire stack.

This makes it too easy to keep even overwhelming numbers at bay: you just make sure never to be caught inside a city; and make sure you always catch the enemy inside the city. With no defenses and no fortified units the kill ratio your city attackers get makes wars ridiculously inexpensive and makes promoting units a cakewalk.

Of course I'm not saying I can't lose a war ever (such as when all AIs gang up on me because I have neglected to keep an eye on diplomacy and power); but this discovery sure makes it harder to do so

 

[Molybdeus]

The attacker actually has the advantage in Civ4, because the defender can only do two things.

1) Fortify with a large stack.
If they do this, you can destroy them with massed artillery.

2) Fortify in small groups.
If they do this, you can overwhelm them with numbers. They will easily kill your first unit, but they will then be weakened, and will probably lose to a full strength unit the next turn.

Don't be afraid to lose catapults. View them as expendable. For each city you capture in the mid to late game, you should lose two or possibly three siege units. Also make sure that you use the bombard ability to reduce the city's defense to 0% before attacking.

 

[Bushface]

Recently, Shaka declared war on me because I refused to give him Nationalism, and invaded me with a stack of about 20 Knights, 10 Pikemen (upgraded from Impis, so with the Mobility promo), some Crossbowmen, and a dozen or more catapults and trebs. It took me 2 turns to destroy this army because I just didn't have enough Tanks to do it in one turn.
Moral: bigger armies are not always better armies.

 

[El Koeno]

Recently, Shaka declared war on me because I refused to give him Nationalism, and invaded me with a stack of about 20 Knights, 10 Pikemen (upgraded from Impis, so with the Mobility promo), some Crossbowmen, and a dozen or more catapults and trebs. It took me 2 turns to destroy this army because I just didn't have enough Tanks to do it in one turn.
Moral: bigger armies are not always better armies.

 

[azzaman333]

Mass catapults > anything of an equivalent era provided you have enough backup units to clean off the injured units.

 

[BoydofZINJ]

Combat can be frustrating and rewarding at the same time.

First, Look at your units. An archer unit with 2 city garison promotions will be worse than a spearman with no promotions.

Second, look at his units. Attacking an archer in a city with 2 city garrison promotions and a wall and a castle will be harder than attacking a swordsman with no promotions and no wall and no castle.

Third, look at where your attacking or defending. Buildings like walls and castles can make or break a defense. Wonders like the Statue of Zeus and Mount Rushmore can help keep your people happy during war or make them miserable (or the enemy) and they demand peace. If you are attacking a unit inside a city with a wall, castle, and city garrison promotions... then you will need superior firepower or the ability to launch multiple waves of troops or use a nuke.

Four, if you use nukes... use them! A nice "trick" is to use a nuke (or 2) on the square behind the city (from your troops). Nukes do the most damage on the square they hit and do cosniderable damage to the adjacent square. However, the SDI program can effectively shut down your nuke program and can cause the feared global warming.

Five, if you do not have nukes use catapults and other siege artillery weapons and destroy the city defenses. Even aircraft is good and lowering city defenses. A city defense which is at zero is easier to attack than a 100% city defense.

Six, Civ IV tip 33, "Wars are rarely won in a day. If you lack the force to capture enemy cities, consider pillaging the countryside instead. You may lure your opponent's units out of their strongholds. Even if not, a war of attrition may lead to economic advantage, and ultimately to your victory."
Either in Defense or Offense, use you will need more troops than your foe to gaurentee success. Four archers are better than one archer in city defense. Four swordsman and one catapult will do much better than a fourswordsman when attackign a city. If the enemy has three archers, bring 7 swordsman and a catapult to take the city. (Better yet 6+ swordsman and 3 catapults.)

Seven, look at your untis strengths and weakness and promotions. A swordsman (with a natural +10 to city attack) and the city attack promotion will fare better than an axeman with a four levels of the attack bonus. An archer will farebetter as a city defender with two levels of city garrison promotions than an axeman with no bonus against most units.

Eight, pick and chose. If you are smart and only fighting one enemy that is superiour - the computer AI will normally concentrate their firepower on a single target. If you know which city will be the focus of the enemy's attention, then you can start reinforcing that city with defense buildings and troops. Do not get over confident, a smart person and a "lucky" AI will switch cities from time to time. In a single land mass map, against one for, you can normally determine which city the enemy will attack first. Prioritize defenses on those cities - even during peace time.

Nine, do not be scared, use fast level troops and pillage an enemy "rear" area. Many people, both AI and in Multiplayer (enemy human players) tend to leave the "rear" areas weaker than the "frontlines." A swift unit that can pillage can devastate an enemy's infrastructure by pillaging key resources and destroying/capturing enemy workers and settlers.

Ten, do not forget your spy units. Spy units are useful in determing exactly what units are in a city as well as running espionage missions. Imagine a key city under chaos and riots due to espionage units.

Last tip, Bigger is not better and use your civilizations "uber" units. Ten archer troops are worse than one marine troop for defense. Every civilization has "uber" units. They are units which are replacements for others. The germans have panzer units which are superior than the original tanks. The azetecs have them replacements for warriors. For the most part, each civilization has these units to help them. The vikings beserkers can be a force to reckon with - but only if you build them. If you play the vikings and never build beserker units then you are not playing that civilizations maximum potential. Of course, if you are trying to win the space race - why build massive armies of beserkers which are a replacement for axeman. I am not a big fan of "early" wars. I tend to avoid civilizatisn with "ancient" era unit upgrades. My opinion is that normally you can out tech an "early" war enemy and do more with less, but more powerful units. However, I have lost games when I am in the classical era with multiple wonders and a force of Viking beserkers capture city after city with only a single longbowman as a defender.

 

[Electryon]

Something that seems to get overlooked often in Civ is the importance of mobility. I like to build extensive road networks in my territory and keep some fast units (2 :move) to harass an enemy SoD. I know that may seem more like "strategy" than "tactics", but having better mobility can make a huge difference in concentrating your units at the right tactical point.

My 2

 

[Tully Bascombe]

Start with a LOT of cats, to wear him down. After that just check every unit you have to see which one gets the best odds for the attack. If none looks like they'll make it, I usually send in some cannon fodder, until my elite units get good odds.

This is the second time I've read the suggestion to send in weak troops first, and follow up with your better troops. I guess it helps preserve your best units, which will be defending (perhaps) at the end of the turn.

It sounds a bit painful, but I've gotten used to suicide cats and I guess this is just an extension of that same principle.

 

[Sueff]

Keep your city garrison promoted longbows or whatever you have outside of the city. Only keep your first strike ones in, because they don't suffer too much collateral damage. Keep in mind to have quick battles only on for offense. After his Catapults attacked move your defenders in and watch him die painfully. The 25% fortify bonus is much too weak when compared to not sufferin from collateral damage.
For his retreating units: some suicide cats and offense units will do the trick.

 

[Swedishguy]

War isn't really that hard. If you have the most means of production, you win. If you haven't your screwed.

 

[r_rolo1]

War isn't really that hard. If you have the most means of production, you win. If you haven't your screwed.

Not necessarily.... I learned that in Warlords game ( when cats could kill ) ... I had cats, longbows and Cr maces and 5 cities, Gandhi had grens , trebs and 7 cities ,well developed and even in decent places . In spite of Gandhi's best prod and higher tech units I smashed him to the ground. How? Basically because I could produce more cats than he could build grens.... if he killed a cat with a gren another cat would kill him , leading to him to lose more in battle than me ( therefor nullifying his better prod ) ,and that added to collateral and good tactics ( stick to forests and high ground when possible, using rivers for defense and having woodman and guerrilla units for stack defense ).

Production is a important part of the warfare in Civ IV , but its not ( only ) the size of the army that matters, it's how we use it

 

[Nay]

Flanking.
Its the single most effective defense tactic since BTS.

Keep 10-15 Doubleflank Horse Archers in reserve and you are set.

Horse Archers with dual flanking promotions (barracks + stable = 5 XP = 2 promos) have 49% withdraw against Pikemen, Battletanks and god himself.

that means, that about half of them will survive the suicide attack and, in turn, do collateral damage to catapults and trebs.

This leads the AI to one of 2 decisions:
first: heal up 3-4 turns, which is all you should need to strengthen the defenses.
second: attack without siegecraft, which leads to utter carnage in front of the walls.

Whatever he does, you should come up alive.
Bloodied, but alive.

 

[Woodreaux]

When I am attacked by the AI's huge SoD, I used to dread retreating to city, because it was surrounded by towns and other improvements. Then, I realized the value of Forts. If you build forts just outside your border cities' BFC you get the same defensive bonuses as cities + the 50% woods/jungle defense bonus. This means, you can turtle up near your borders without endangering your suburbs. On top of that, if you chop the tiles adjacent to this fort, should the enemy opt to bypass your fort, they'll be exposed without terrain bonuses.

 

[sagelnarg]

I realize you need to 'counter' a stack - but how do you do that when the units that line up to defend against your attacker seem to pop out at random?

They don't pop up at random, the best defender against a given attacker is always chosen. Let's assume he has a crossbow and a pike. So if you attack with a knight, he defends with the pike. If you send a maceman, he defends with the crossbow instead.

The same happens ofc if he attacks. For each of his attackers, you defend with your best defender against this particular attacker.

So far, the defender seems to have the advantage. Enter artillery. For each attack with an artillery, your whole stack takes "collateral damage" (up to six units i think), no matter if that artillery dies or retreats. After enough artillery fire, your stack is so weak that it doesn't matter if you defend with your best unit. You just get slaughtered. And the AI loves to build artillery, it is often from a third up to more than half of their entire stack.

On my difficulty level (a humble noble/prince), you should expect those stacks around the late medieval ages, early renaissance. Sometimes earlier, but rarely (i think it depends on the size of the rivals and the warmongering they have done).

None the less, my way is the way of the turtle. I love designing impregnable fortresses. I can't give much advice for offensive wars , but I made good experiences with the following counter measures, most of them already mentioned:

- Don't defend in cities. Due to artillery, the city defense bonus goes to zero in the fraction of a round, leaving him usually with enough to launch the assault in the same turn. Plus, he will have city raiders, so you are sitting on a tile with virtually NEGATIVE defense properties. You would be better of on a simple grassland tile in that case.

- Attack his stack with artillery of your own. It doesn't matter if they all die, it WILL weaken him due to collateral damage, even if the defending unit will take no damage at all. At the very least, it will delay his attack (while he waits for heal). Think of them as one-way-units.

- Build enough artillery I often neglect that, and I curse myself every time that happens ...

- Try to meet him on a tile with natural defenses, such as hills or forest, behind a river, or all of that together. Especially forest gives more defense than any city could ever grant you, since his artillery can't bring it down. You might consider building roads to such places and fortresses above them (fortress pro: can't be taken down by artillery. con: is subject to city raider promotions).
Even if he takes that fortified position, he will waste much of his artillery in the process. Without artillery, he can't take cities.

- I tend to prefer "Drill" promotions above "Garrison", even for my garrison units. Drill gives you first strikes, AND makes the unit suffer less collateral damage (maybe psychological, but it seems a really significant difference). And in my experience, mid to late game wars are all about surviving collateral damage.
(try a protective leader or the ethiopians for that)

- Siege engines suffer no collateral damage, and machine guns count as siege engines. They are a turtles best friend, until tanks show up.

- I sacrificed a city once like kazapp described. My heart bled, but it worked, and I felt incredibly clever . It is not something you would want to do on a regular basis (well maybe if you found cities for that sole purpose. name them accordingly to avoid confusion! hehe). But if the alternative is getting wiped out completely, it sure is an option.

- I had no success with the flanking cavalry so far, but it seems i just had never enough of them. I will try that the next game i get horses . Cavalry is another thing i tend to neglect it seems ...


That all being said, I find the city raider promotion a bit silly. It should help to ignore defense bonuses, but it shouldn't come to the point where defending a fortified position is detrimental compared to defending an unfortified one. But hey.

 

[Silence101]

I haven't read all of the replied, so I hope this isn't redundant, but I like to play more of the warmonger role myself - so here's my POV.

All things being equal, the defender will typically have the advantage. The attacker will have to fight the defender's unit with the best odds of winning. And then, when you factor in the terrain bonuses for units that have them, the odds can quickly turn against the attacker for what would otherwise be an equal fight.

One of my best practices - even when I'm the one declaring war, I try to position my unit stacks to where they will have the terrain advantage... across rivers, in forests, on hills, etc., and I let the AI come to me. I try to be on defense as much as possible so that the AI will have to face my best defensive unit for whatever they're attacking with.

Of course, this means you need a balanced stack... spearmen to cope with mounted units, axemen or, even better, crossbowmen for melee units, etc. When a weakness is exposed (all your spearmen in the stack are dead, for example), your enemy has found an exploitable weakness called a break point. I bring this up, because the AI will also being using balanced stacks - if/when you choose to attack in the open field or attack cities, you'll want to look for the most exploitable break point - like if they only have one spearmen in the stack, your first few mounted units may die, but once that spearmen is dead, the rest of your mounted units will likely have a field day cleaning up the rest of the stack. If you must attack, look for exploitable breakpoints, and try to hedge against breakpoints in your own stacks.

Attacking a city is suicide unless: 1.it's small and reletively unprotected, 2.it's in a revolt, or 3.you bring seige weapons. Spys (BTS) are great for putting a city in revolt, but the revolt only lasts one turn. If you don't choose to use spies and you're attacking a well fortified city, please, please, please use seige weapons. Bring enough units to fortify the city once it's been taken.

If you're getting attacked, look for good defensive terrian that the AI will try and move into and try to get there first. This is big with forested hills that are right next to targeted cities... If you can defend these places, you'll force the AI to attack from out in the open which will put them in a much weaker defensive position - ripe for a counter attack.

Above all - you must prepare. Even during peacetime, keep that military strong. You should always be high on the power chart. Have a few good production cities that can spit out units quickly - specialize these cities with barracks/drydocks/hero epic/settled GG's/etc.