I Like Civ V better than Civ IV

[Misterboy]

You can buy Civ4 Complete off the shelf or Civ5 off the shelf. We're expected to play Civ5 in leiu of Civ4 yet Civ5 has far less content.

Well, not really. If you'd read the thread you'd see that I've stated I can't go back to Civ 4 because Civ 5 is so much better. So while Civ 4 has "more to do", it's not necessarily better. There is a fundamental flaw in your logic.

For me the deal breaker (winner?) is hexes and 1upt.

 

[Bill Bisco]

Better is a matter of perspective and less noteworthy for discussion. Civ4 has more content more mods and more ways to play and potentially have fun. That's the issue. So comparing vanilla Civ5 to Civ4+stuff is quite valid.

 

[derekliese]

Great post! I totally agree with you Misterboy. I'm not a Civ expert, all I can say is that I really enjoy the game, and ciV improved cIV IMO. Yeah, it is not perfect, but nothing is ever "perfect". I don't understand why so many members whine about CiV, just don't play it and play a game you enjoy more! I also agree the AI and diplomacy have issues, but I TOTALLY agree that I am on edge dealing with diplomacy. I managed to befriend Montezuma an entire game when I was India. I just was friendly with him and pretty much agreed with what he wanted. (cause his army was right next to me and HUGE) and I ended up winning a cultural victory without him ever attacking me. I think players make mistakes with the diplomacy and them blame it on the programming. You just have to learn how to deal with the AI. They can be unpredictable like real humans which makes the game more exciting IMO. You never know how the AI will respond. Way more fun than a predictable diplomatic relationship. I can't stop playing and can't wait for it to get even better. So long cIV!!

 

[Jim Bro]

CIV5 has killer graphics and a better combat system than its predecessor. however, here is my list of things that makes me believe CIV4 might still be at the top. and it's not getting better the more I play.

NO RELIGIONS: war is the face of religions (and capitalism). a lot of people are complaining that in CIV4, it just blocked diplomacy but I'm sorry, world leaders have to deal with it so why it shouldn't block diplomacy? i've been able to solve this problem with mass missionaries invasions before so... plus countries of the same faith are way more near each other and it's always been that way. there is no diplomacy points in CIV5 so what is the point to supress this aspect anyways? I agree that Firaxis probably wanted to give more freedom in relation-making but to this extent?

NO GOVERNMENTS: The social policies are OK but they could have been added to a government. we all now realize there is no more consideration about what would be best for you at a certain time

NO % GOLD/SCIENCE: not a big deal but in CIV 5 you can't halt your science for a few turns because you want to cash in to upgrade your units for an upcoming war. you have to think more in advance with your money so you have less moves that you can do in order to have quick gold.

NO SPANIARDS, NO ZULUS, NO INCAS, NO DUTCH, NO MONGOLIANS, and so forth...

NO SCENARIOS: ??????? Perhaps it will come with the expansions. hope so.

NO HOTSEAT: again, why? It was kind of complicated to play that way in CIV4 but at least we could. now with CIV5 you have to log on Steam that bugs you all the time with its adverts and of course, in these times of consumerism, you now need two computers if you want to play with a friend. BAD.

NO MAP EDITOR: this doesn't bother me that much but still we can't pretend CIV5 is very user-friendly unless you say it is less complicated. also, my feeling with CIV5 is that it's either on survival mode or you have a great domination game. nothing much in between so at least in CIV4, one could fix things up with the editor. in CIV5 you can't.

BAD ROAD-MAPPING AND PATH CALCULATION PROBLEMS: A lot of bugs. you have to click twice quite often to send something outhere for some reasons (ex. your ship has to come near another ship first and then you have to click again to attack it).

ANNOYING NOTICES: way too many.

CITY-STATES: an add-on that doesn't bring much to the game. they are literally useless except using them for their resources until you wipe them out or maybe as buffer states to protect you since you can give them units (you can't give units to other civilizations in CIV5). other than that, they bug you all the time with futile demands even if they are faaaar away.

Finally, AWFUL ARTIFICIAL-INTELLIGENCE: a competitor will give you half their territory if you kick his ass in battle but don't expect him to give you 10 gold even if you have riflemans pointing at him when he's sticked with medieval units. the computer doesn't really tries to win at all as a matter of fact.

I've played all Civilizations since age 10 and this one, in my opinion, is the last and the least of the last two... until patches patch it or expansions expansion it.

 

[Esckey]

In regards to the AI, I think they tried to fix the problems AI had in Civ4 and went overboard.

In Civ4 you could beat the crap outta some, absolutely destroy them, but you want peace cause they're a buffer, or not worth the time, have another war that needs more attention, or the war weariness is getting to you. What ever the reason the Civ4 AI simply will NOT go for peace. You could offer them 50K Gold and half your cities and they still wouldn't go for peace.
As opposed to now where they cave in to your call for peace like a deck of cards in a tornado.

In Civ5 the AI forget the good things you did for them, making it hard to stay friends. While in Civ4 they'll still be mad at you for something you did 5000 years ago. Opps I killed your neighbor in turn 10 of the 5000 turn game and you still hate me?

 

[Guardian_PL]

In regards to the AI, I think they tried to fix the problems AI had in Civ4 and went overboard.

In Civ4 you could beat the crap outta some, absolutely destroy them, but you want peace cause they're a buffer, or not worth the time, have another war that needs more attention, or the war weariness is getting to you. What ever the reason the Civ4 AI simply will NOT go for peace. You could offer them 50K Gold and half your cities and they still wouldn't go for peace.
As opposed to now where they cave in to your call for peace like a deck of cards in a tornado.

In Civ5 the AI forget the good things you did for them, making it hard to stay friends. While in Civ4 they'll still be mad at you for something you did 5000 years ago. Opps I killed your neighbor in turn 10 of the 5000 turn game and you still hate me?

That is simply not true, I don't know where did you take that stuff from.

 

[klokwerk]

I definitely agree with the OP.

Civ 5 is superior to Civ 4 in nearly every way for me.

 

[Jediron]

Great post! I totally agree with you Misterboy. I'm not a Civ expert, all I can say is that I really enjoy the game

Sure you do. Alot of people liking CIV 5 are not "avandced" players. Most of them are new to the concept. The way it plays and feels now, is dissapointing the player who loved the depth and control they had in the game. CIV5 is "streamlined", i think to attract more people.

Good for you, and others, bad news for me, and others.
Simple as that.

CIV 5 is not superiour, CIV 5 is just another game. It looks like, it smells like CIV, but in the end; it's nothing like all previous CIV,s.
It shouldn't even be called CIV.

 

[PieceOfMind]

CIV5 has killer graphics and a better combat system than its predecessor. however, here is my list of things that makes me believe CIV4 might still be at the top. and it's not getting better the more I play.

...

I've played all Civilizations since age 10 and this one, in my opinion, is the last and the least of the last two... until patches patch it or expansions expansion it.

Moderator Action: Jim Bro, please don't just copy paste posts to multiple threads. I've removed the two duplicates of this post since this was the first one. If you must repeat yourself, I recommend to put your old post inside a quote box or link directly to it (you can copy its link by rightclicking on the little post number in the top right corner).

 

[SuperJay]

You just have to learn how to deal with the AI.

Haha, this sounds like the "you just have to think about it differently!" defense. Pray tell, can you teach us how to deal with the AI, since apparently our ignorance is the whole problem?

You never know how the AI will respond.

Sure you do! They'll be your friend for 2 turns, then they'll yell at you for one of the following reasons: you have not enough units / too many units; you lag behind in science / are too far ahead in science; you built too many wonders / not enough wonders; you expanded too much / not enough; you won a battle once 2,530 years ago; or you just put on the wrong outfit that morning and Catherine thinks you look awful in red because your complexion just isn't right for it and you're really more of an autumn.

And then they'll declare war on you and you will stomp them.

That's the whole problem, they ARE that predictable.

(I'm just playin around, really. Not trying to be a jerk; if you're enjoying Civ5 in it's current state, more power to ya. I hope you continue to.)

 

[flp_ndrox]

Sure you do. Alot of people liking CIV 5 are not "avandced" players.

Guilty as charged.

It looks like, it smells like CIV, but in the end; it's nothing like all previous CIV,s.
It shouldn't even be called CIV.

How can you make that statement? I played Civ 2 Monday. It's still fun 14 years later. It's also totally a Civ game. Y'know what, CiV has units, cities, workers, roads, a tech tree, and wonders, too. CiV is a Civilization game in the same vein as Civs I and II. And I think I'm going to continue to enjoy it.

I don't believe for a second that Religion, SoDs, and sliders are what defines a Civ game.

 

[Manifold]

ok, i come out too, i like civ5 more than civ4

BATTLE: The movement of the units is more tactical. the Paper, Scissors, Stone System now makes sence, because on every field is just one unit. armies now are building fronts instead of stacks. Especially hugh defense stacks in the citys were boring. in Civ4

RELIGIONS: The system of religions in civ4 was early medieval. civs with the same religion (often neighbors) loves each other the result was early war till one religion become dominant. after that peace the whole early modern period until the peacefully civs get freedom of religion and after that cultural linking was worthless. this way of religious captivity the whole early and middle game was easy to predict.

I just miss a bit the holy cities and holy wars. matter for a expansion

GOVERNMENTS: i like the way to give my civ improvements, like a bonus. the choose of social policies must planed very well how my civ is situated. it is more a continually progress than a revolutionary cut. but these real historical cuts were in game per exclusion of paths, like autocracy and freedom

I just miss some special historical social policies, like slavery and serfdom... and i miss some negative effects like war-weariness.

GOLD/SCIENCE/HAPPINESS/ESPIONAGE: In Civ4 i never understood the connection between these things without that it was since Civ1 the way of distribute the non-production and non-food stuff. i guess building schools for people brings more scientific advance than tax reduction. The new system is more realistic, ergo better. it is just new, so it just needs getting used to.

And yes it is good, that field improvements had to be maintained, not every polar tile needs a road like in Civ4. this also improves the battle system, because the defender had to use the battlefield like the attacker, except he could maintain a complete infrastructure

CIVS: I like the NEW Songhai and Siam Empires. The missing Genghis Khan will causes me to buy the expansion.

CITY-STATES: Very good idea! I like the calculable interaction with them. I get what i have paid for.

AI: Granted, the first time Gandhi declare war on me, because he cant win the game without this war, was a surprise. BUT of course he had to make war with me, someone had run into my artillery. i did not build them to be exhibits.

Misterboy, you are right hexes are the best.

 

[Misterboy]

Better is a matter of perspective and less noteworthy for discussion. Civ4 has more content more mods and more ways to play and potentially have fun. That's the issue. So comparing vanilla Civ5 to Civ4+stuff is quite valid.

I agree. I compare both... did from the beginning of the thread. I don't know how I could me more clear. I enjoy Civ 5 more than BTS, so I think it's "better".

BTW, "more" is a value judgement. My point is that "more" /= "better".

 

[Misterboy]

Sure you do. Alot of people liking CIV 5 are not "avandced" players. Most of them are new to the concept. The way it plays and feels now, is dissapointing the player who loved the depth and control they had in the game. CIV5 is "streamlined", i think to attract more people.

Good for you, and others, bad news for me, and others.
Simple as that.

CIV 5 is not superiour, CIV 5 is just another game. It looks like, it smells like CIV, but in the end; it's nothing like all previous CIV,s.
It shouldn't even be called CIV.

That's just hilarious. I've played Civ starting at 2 and I played 3 and 4 extensively. Your posts crack me up. Bringing out the tired old, "I'm better than you so you don't understand why you're wrong" argument holds no water with me.

Nothing like previous Civ games? Really? No... really...are you serious?

 

[Misterboy]

Haha, this sounds like the "you just have to think about it differently!" defense. Pray tell, can you teach us how to deal with the AI, since apparently our ignorance is the whole problem?



Sure you do! They'll be your friend for 2 turns, then they'll yell at you for one of the following reasons: you have not enough units / too many units; you lag behind in science / are too far ahead in science; you built too many wonders / not enough wonders; you expanded too much / not enough; you won a battle once 2,530 years ago; or you just put on the wrong outfit that morning and Catherine thinks you look awful in red because your complexion just isn't right for it and you're really more of an autumn.

And then they'll declare war on you and you will stomp them.

That's the whole problem, they ARE that predictable.

(I'm just playin around, really. Not trying to be a jerk; if you're enjoying Civ5 in it's current state, more power to ya. I hope you continue to.)

The problems that exist will get ironed out. And you're right that I was wrong in saying "you'll never know what the AI will do", but my point is that it is not irrational like so many claim.

I simply disagree with your assertion that the AI will be friendly and then just turn on you. It just doesn't happen to me anymore unless I pretty much deserve it. Not after I realized that pacts of cooperation and secrecy have an effect, and breaking promises, have a big effect, etc etc. It's these statements that I don't like... where people claim the AI "always" does this or that. This thread is riddled with people with first hand experience of staying friends with the AI for extended periods. My current game has been like this until I decided to invade everyone. Sure that made some people angry. Heck, even one poster said he was friends with Monty for an entire game and he was his direct neighbor!

And finally the "you got to think about it differently" defense is valid. I find it hard to believe you'd argue this point? It's called life. Do you go through life never changing the way you think or react to a situation? Maybe you'd prefer to have things be one way forever so you never have to change? Cut your finger off trying to peel an apple? Maybe you should change your approach. Buy a new game that has changed mechanics? Maybe you should be open to altering your approach.

 

[Esckey]

That is simply not true, I don't know where did you take that stuff from.

Got it from Civ 1, Civ 2, Civ 3, Civ 4, Civ 5 and all expansions included.

 

[AndrewCree]

CIV5 has killer graphics and a better combat system than its predecessor. however, here is my list of things that makes me believe CIV4 might still be at the top. and it's not getting better the more I play.

NO RELIGIONS: war is the face of religions (and capitalism). a lot of people are complaining that in CIV4, it just blocked diplomacy but I'm sorry, world leaders have to deal with it so why it shouldn't block diplomacy? i've been able to solve this problem with mass missionaries invasions before so... plus countries of the same faith are way more near each other and it's always been that way. there is no diplomacy points in CIV5 so what is the point to supress this aspect anyways? I agree that Firaxis probably wanted to give more freedom in relation-making but to this extent?

Wrong, Protestants were always arguing with Catholics (see 30 Years War, Ireland), Sunnis vs. Shias (Iran-Iraq war IIRC) etc.

IOW, same basic religion shouldn't give a +rep.

NO % GOLD/SCIENCE: not a big deal but in CIV 5 you can't halt your science for a few turns because you want to cash in to upgrade your units for an upcoming war. you have to think more in advance with your money so you have less moves that you can do in order to have quick gold.

IOW, you have to plan ahead instead of 100% science until you need gold.

NO SCENARIOS: ??????? Perhaps it will come with the expansions. hope so.

That's normal. You may get a couple of scenarios, but not many. Usually it's the Earth with historic starting locations.

NO HOTSEAT: again, why? It was kind of complicated to play that way in CIV4 but at least we could. now with CIV5 you have to log on Steam that bugs you all the time with its adverts and of course, in these times of consumerism, you now need two computers if you want to play with a friend. BAD.

Looks like you've got 2 rants together here. Firstly, hot-seat will probably turn up in a patch. Secondly, learn how to use Steam. There's probably 50 posts on this forum alone telling you how to get rid of the adverts.

NO MAP EDITOR: this doesn't bother me that much but still we can't pretend CIV5 is very user-friendly unless you say it is less complicated. also, my feeling with CIV5 is that it's either on survival mode or you have a great domination game. nothing much in between so at least in CIV4, one could fix things up with the editor. in CIV5 you can't.

Wrong. The map editor has been available for over a fortnight.

BAD ROAD-MAPPING AND PATH CALCULATION PROBLEMS: A lot of bugs. you have to click twice quite often to send something outhere for some reasons (ex. your ship has to come near another ship first and then you have to click again to attack it).

Wrong again. Most of this is due to the 1upt limit occasionally causing things to be unable to reach their destination. Ranged units (including ships) can only attack by ranged combat - that looks like an engine limitation.

ANNOYING NOTICES: way too many.

The only one that annoys me is "WLTK" day spam when 20+ cities are given a resource. Takes forever to close them all! Mostly they are useful, and help avoid missing important info.

CITY-STATES: an add-on that doesn't bring much to the game. they are literally useless except using them for their resources until you wipe them out or maybe as buffer states to protect you since you can give them units (you can't give units to other civilizations in CIV5). other than that, they bug you all the time with futile demands even if they are faaaar away.

I prefer not well balanced. Maritime is overpowered (current game over 20 food from Capital hex), Culture always good, Military occasionally useful.

Finally, AWFUL ARTIFICIAL-INTELLIGENCE: a competitor will give you half their territory if you kick his ass in battle but don't expect him to give you 10 gold even if you have riflemans pointing at him when he's sticked with medieval units. the computer doesn't really tries to win at all as a matter of fact.

Seems to fall over itself if you kick it hard a lot less since the first couple of patches.

 

[Misterboy]

NO RELIGIONS: war is the face of religions (and capitalism). a lot of people are complaining that in CIV4, it just blocked diplomacy but I'm sorry, world leaders have to deal with it so why it shouldn't block diplomacy? i've been able to solve this problem with mass missionaries invasions before so... plus countries of the same faith are way more near each other and it's always been that way. there is no diplomacy points in CIV5 so what is the point to supress this aspect anyways? I agree that Firaxis probably wanted to give more freedom in relation-making but to this extent?

Personally I count the lack of Civ 4 style religion a major plus. Loved it at first, but found it to be pretty overpowered and unrealistic. Too "gamey" and let you manipulate the AI way too much.

NO GOVERNMENTS: The social policies are OK but they could have been added to a government. we all now realize there is no more consideration about what would be best for you at a certain time

Another choice I'm a big fan of. I disliked how I had to take my empire from Freedom to Slavery and back again, for example. Really broke the spell for me. It wasn't a deal killer by any stretch, but I didn't like it and I think the Social Policies are a step in the right direction.

NO % GOLD/SCIENCE: not a big deal but in CIV 5 you can't halt your science for a few turns because you want to cash in to upgrade your units for an upcoming war. you have to think more in advance with your money so you have less moves that you can do in order to have quick gold.

No bizarre slider that did a job but didn't ever make much sense? Fine by me. Now, I can plan what I want, and shift gears when I need to. You can also directly affect this by entering the city screen and emphasizing gold or tech. Takes a small mount of time in a HUGE empire, but it's doable and feels more meaningful to me. More satisfying somehow. Why be beholden to a game mechanic... because you're accustomed to it?

NO SPANIARDS, NO ZULUS, NO INCAS, NO DUTCH, NO MONGOLIANS, and so forth...

Try coming back after they release more. Sorta like they did with every other version of CIV.

NO SCENARIOS: ??????? Perhaps it will come with the expansions. hope so.

Try coming back when they release more, just like every other version of CIV.

NO HOTSEAT: again, why? It was kind of complicated to play that way in CIV4 but at least we could. now with CIV5 you have to log on Steam that bugs you all the time with its adverts and of course, in these times of consumerism, you now need two computers if you want to play with a friend. BAD.

I agree here. MP is lacking pretty bad. But that's also sadly a bit of a tradition. I very much expect them to fix this.

NO MAP EDITOR: this doesn't bother me that much but still we can't pretend CIV5 is very user-friendly unless you say it is less complicated. also, my feeling with CIV5 is that it's either on survival mode or you have a great domination game. nothing much in between so at least in CIV4, one could fix things up with the editor. in CIV5 you can't.

Thought there is one now??

BAD ROAD-MAPPING AND PATH CALCULATION PROBLEMS: A lot of bugs. you have to click twice quite often to send something outhere for some reasons (ex. your ship has to come near another ship first and then you have to click again to attack it).

Not a LOT of bugs. One bug I can think of, which isn't really a bug. But I think they can fix it. What happens is, you tell a unit to move somewhere over many turns. Then someone else occupies that space, so it makes you re-order the first unit. The problem, is when moving a big army you often click the same hexes, so you have to repeat orders. It's annoying but not that hard to deal with. Also, I would expect that it's easily fixable by waiting until the unit is 1 move away before considering the situation to be a problem. I do also have a problem with units moving through neutral CS territory when they don't have to. Again, not a huge deal and easily fixable.

ANNOYING NOTICES: way too many.

This is just nitpicking. Really you have a serious problem with this? It can be annoying when major events happen, or you hook up a resource that a lot of cities ask for. But quickly right clicking takes but a moment. Also I know of at least one mod that allows a shift-rightclick to dismiss all alerts. But even without the mod... sheesh... are we reaching into the bottom of the barrel or what?

CITY-STATES: an add-on that doesn't bring much to the game. they are literally useless except using them for their resources until you wipe them out or maybe as buffer states to protect you since you can give them units (you can't give units to other civilizations in CIV5). other than that, they bug you all the time with futile demands even if they are faaaar away.

Brings a TON to the game! Wow, I'm sorry you can't see what they do. Granted, apparently maritime CS are overpowered in the early game, but there are always exploits found and patched out. Always. And personally I haven't tried to pursue this exploit so it doesn't affect me. I really like the CS for many reasons. Plus, you can ignore them, or turn them off. Fancy that?

Finally, AWFUL ARTIFICIAL-INTELLIGENCE: a competitor will give you half their territory if you kick his ass in battle but don't expect him to give you 10 gold even if you have riflemans pointing at him when he's sticked with medieval units. the computer doesn't really tries to win at all as a matter of fact.

The AI is not perfect. You're rolling Diplo AI with combat AI I guess. Diplo's been patched already to reduce the offers of cities. Update your game. As for combat AI, it can be inept, and it has real problems crossing water. But all CIV AIs have been pretty bad. This one has a TON more to deal with. I expect them to sort it out soon. In the mean time, I deal with this because I really don't think it's *that* much worse than previous iterations of the series. This is the worst problem with Civ 5, I'll grant you.

 

[JLoZeppeli]

Ehmm about the diplo problem and cities gift... Bismarck after the patch offers me 4 cities, so i don't know if is true that, can you confirm? I refused the offer, but it's a bit annoying....

 

[QuixotesGhost]

I notice that a lot of perceived imbalances about Civ4 stem from players who played below thier level. Since Misterboy mentioned "founding most of the religions" and that he found espionage to be worthless, one can surmise that he only played on levels where he was most often the tech leader i.e. below his level. A heavy-religion focus in Civ4 was, if anything, slightly underpowered and a specialized strat (in fact most strats in Civ4 were specialized which was great!). Additionally, Espionage was a very powerful tool if one knew how to leverage it correctly.