I never use Hereditary rule

Agramon

Warlord
Joined
Nov 23, 2006
Messages
261
I never use hereditary rule. I still play on monarch though. From some old veteran thread I gathered that MP ist not even worth a fresh riverside cottage and only barely in Bureau. Since I hardly ever cottage, thats even worse.

On the other hand lot of MP in Capital and gottage+growth seems quite common knowledge. Is this really superior? What are the conditions? High slider? Academy? How many cottages? Financial? Is there some sort of cpt threshold? Is growing non-fin non riverside on mp waste?
 
IIRC HR can pay dividends in cities with lots of riversides and definitely with the financial trait. I believe using MPs breaks even when they allow working +2 commerce tials (i.e.riverside cottages or ordinary hamlets). With financial its significantly more lucrative, but I think the best part of HR is it comes before you have many other happiness options.

Even placing 1 or 2 MPs per city in the early game can be the difference between 6-7 pop and 8-9 which is a significant early boost, especially when there are limited luxury resources available. Not to mention there's no other civic in the government column for ~1/2 the game, there's no reason not to gain some extra happiness from your standard city garrisons.

And yes nonfinancial, nonriverside cottage are rarely beneficial under HR, they just take too long to start paying back the empire.
 
If your playing on Monarch your almost certainly within the free unit limit outside of war, so using extra units under HR is pretty much always useful until your over the free unit limit.
 
You seem to be talking about multiplayer, which I have no knowledge of, but HR (along with Slavery and Organized Religion) is one of the best early civics in the game. Late game happiness is abundant, with both resources being easy to trade for and happiness infrastructure (Markets, Forges, etc.) being much more accessible, while early game happiness is provided solely by 2-3 resources (sometimes less). Thus, commerce cities working multiple riverside cottages can't nearly work all their tiles. However, be careful not to abuse it - as tempting as it might be to use LOTS of military police on production cities and GP farms, it will hurt your research to delay the switch to US or Rep (due to massive unhappiness problem without HR) a lot more than to actually get all cities large.
 
@Framesticker
MP = military police

@OP
HR is a very powerful civic, it seems you want some numbers or demonstration so I will give what I can. First of all it is true, that putting MP everywhere does in fact have questionable advantages (check my sig link). Summarising it, the extra gold cost of the population and military unit, means you get little profit, and if you go into pacifism, a loss. Keep in mind, this is in short term, if you are growing cottages and don't need to rush to a short term tech (ie. you want full power in 100 or so turns) depending on your difficulty it may be alright. Otherwise I'll skip to some good examples.

One case where it is always worth it is a bureau acad cap (even though oxford comes later, it is not necessary to "profit"). Assume MP and pop maintenance cost = 2. From one cottage, you get 1 commerce. Add in bureau bonus, 1.5 commerce. Add in acad + lib, 2.125. So thats an immediate profit (though meager) of 0.125, although it doesn't cover the initial cost of production, in 10 turns, this becomes 4.25, a profit of 2.25. This value improves with uni, oxford and cottage growth of course, so it becomes clear rather profitable.

TLDR: After 10 turns, profit of 2.25 with only acad, bureau and lib. As you build more beaker bonus buildings + cottages grow, becomes much higher.
Also consider financial trait, profit much more rapid.

2nd case where HR is useful.
Generating GPfarm. This is, somewhat of a special case one, as you may not always use a size 16+ GP farm. The idea is that you build at least NE in this city (hopefully pacifism + GL). Typically a Golden Age is also included, but for purposes of this, I'll only assume NE. At this stage you should have generated 1-2 GS, we assume 2. So next GP costs 300. The idea in this city is to generate as much GPs as possible in time to bulb either to astro or lib. A city like this you expect should have at least 6 specialists (or you picked wrong city). Lets assume something like 9 MP. So cost 18 gpt. 6 specialists = 18 bpt + lib = 22.5 bpt. Now, as you are bulbing the GP generated, you expect a minimum of 3 GP to be generated. 3 GP is 1200 GPP. You earn GPP at a rate of 36 per turn. So in 33 turns you get 3 GP. Each GP (scientist) can bulb for 1500 beakers. So 4500 beakers total. This is about 135 bpt, converted to consider each scientist this is something like 25.5 bpt for each scientist, well worth their cost. If you have pacfisim or GA, then more GPP generated, more GP and hence more "value". A best case scenario GP farm may well generate 5+ GPs within a space of 30 turns, depending on how you plan things.

TLDR: The costs of a large GPfarm are insignificant compared to the amount of beakers it can generate from bulbing, or indeed, from settling the resulting GPs

3rd case, military build up.
As you build up military, to keep production going, HR offsets whipping unhappiness (until army moves of course).

Of course, in the first 2 cases, you want the cheapest MP possible, to reduce production cost.
Thats all I can think of atm, hope this helps.
 
If you never use HR you either:

1.) Are getting amazing starts with an abundance of happiness resources or
2.) Stifling your civ.
 
5) and never play a SPI civ, never use a golden age and want to play worse than you could

seriously, even if you dont need HR, using it doesn't increase your upkeep costs and more happiness never can be totally wrong. i can tell you that you'll need HR on higher difficulties, at least if you don't want to re-roll every start that has less than 2 luxury resources. but nah, i'd even then use HR, it's just too good early on.

you never fight a war? HR can keep up happiness in conquered cities for example. never were late to emancipation because you were racing towards an U.N. victory?

and, beside this, don't you want to abuse the diplo points you can get with dangerous civs like ragnar or gilgamesh? this alone is a very strong argument for HR. personally, i seldom use mercantilism, but if there's a pissed-off tokugawa nearby? hell yeah, ofc i'll switch!
 
If you have at least 1 military unit per city, then HR gives you at least +1 happiness in every city. At the stage of the game when you get Monarchy, you always need the extra happiness. HR is a no-brainer unless you have the Pyramids.

Whether you should build lots of cheap military units to grow your cities extra large under HR is another issue.
 
Drama is a reasonable alternative to Monarchy for :).
Theatres and the culture slider can provide most of your happiness, you also get early access to the Globe Theatre. Drama is also nicely positioned in the tech tree for higher levels, it comes right after Aesthetics, is on the way to Music for the GA, opens up the Philosophy bulb and is decent trade bait.
 
In absolute terms, HR is one of the weakest civics, because you never want to keep military units in cities, you want them on the field fighting your battles.

However, HR is temporally important, because it provides a source of rare happiness when it becomes available.
 
In absolute terms, HR is one of the weakest civics, because you never want to keep military units in cities, you want them on the field fighting your battles.

However, HR is temporally important, because it provides a source of rare happiness when it becomes available.

But in absolute terms, you don't want to always be fighting wars.
 
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