I still don't understand "The Matrix"

[ChrTh]

Actually, the Oracle never said that she couldn't see pass the decisions that she couldn't understand.

Actually, she did:

Neo: You helped me to get here, but my question is why? Where does this go? Where does it end?
Oracle: I don't know.
Neo: You don't know or you won't tell me?
Oracle: I told you before. No one can see beyond a choice they don't understand, and I mean no one.
Neo: What choice?
Oracle: It doesn't matter. It's my choice. I have my mind to make up, same as you have yours.

 

[Turner]

Well, like I said, it's been a while since I've seen the movie. I don't recall her saying that.

But I still stand by what I last said. I do think she knew what was going to happen. And withholding information from Neo in that conversation could have had the same logic as telling him he wasn't the One in the first movie, to prod him into the direction he needed to go.

She knew Smith was going to assimlate her. She knew that by staying in the matrix she was going to become a part of Smith. And she also knew that by being assimilated she was going to be in a position to influence the outcome of Neo/Smith's fight at the end.

 

[ChrTh]

Well, like I said, it's been a while since I've seen the movie. I don't recall her saying that.

But I still stand by what I last said. I do think she knew what was going to happen. And withholding information from Neo in that conversation could have had the same logic as telling him he wasn't the One in the first movie, to prod him into the direction he needed to go.

She knew Smith was going to assimlate her. She knew that by staying in the matrix she was going to become a part of Smith. And she also knew that by being assimilated she was going to be in a position to influence the outcome of Neo/Smith's fight at the end.

But she wasn't able to influence the outcome at the end. Ok, let me see if I can explain this, because I'm not sure I can verbalize (typealize?) it...

When the Oracle is absorbed by Smith, she sees the rest of the movie. She sees her Smith joining with Neo. She sees what will be said by Smith--the fact that it's her line doesn't mean she actually says it. Smith says it because he believes he's supposed to say it. But right after he says it he gets confused ... the reason he gets confused is because he's tapping into the Oracle's memory of the scene, and the Oracle knows that Neo's victory is imminent...and now Smith sort of knows it, but he doesn't understand it because he still sees himself defeating Neo but not sure why he doesn't see it as a good thing...or why part of him sees it as a good thing but as a different good thing.

I hope that made sense.

To put it another way: it's lot cooler if Oracle/Smith is laughing because she sees what happens, not that it's Smith laughing because he's seen himself winning ... besides, if it's the latter, why do the other Smiths not laugh as well?

There's only one other point in the movie where Meta-Smith is unaware of what an individual knows: "Is it over?" ... I have to believe there's a significance in both of these scenes.

 

[HawkeyeGS]

sorry posted in wrong thread.

 

[ComradeDavo]

So many different outcomes, theories........it's hard to know

The system that the Architect talked about is supposed to be go on forever. The One arises, fights the Agents, gets to the Sources, spares a dozen Zionites and Zion is destroyed, etc the cycle continues. This is supposed to account for the "systemic anomaly," that the machines cannot account for the people who choose through sheer willpower to free themselves from the Matrix. Zion was supposed to be a containment center for those people, and the machines would periodically wipe them out.

However CHANGE is inherent in the cycle because each new One has to CHOOSE which dozen Zionites he is going to save. Thus, there is progress within the system. The Oracle realizes this and prophecies that the next One will fall in love (which does in fact happen); this is a symbol that the One himself is progressing from incarnation to incarnation (kind of like karma). When the New One, Neo, gets to the Source he chooses the "wrong" door.

The Oracle gambled that this radical change would allow for some kind of resolution of the cycle-of-the-Ones, which it does. The viral Smith becomes much stronger (whereas with each prior One, he was rebooted together with the rest of the Matrix before he became a threat). Neo's powers as the One also develop to a peak not seen in his predecessors. For example, he can wirelessly interface with Machines to order them to shut down or do his bidding, just as he can stop bullets in the Matrix. His first attempt at doing this puts him in a coma, however; his "wireless connection" is dumped in the train station between the Machine and the Matrix worlds, where Trinity has to rescue him.

Meanwhile the Oracle realizes that Smith is the key to reaching an end to the war. Neo, at her prophetic instruction, travels to the Machine City to tell them that only he can defeat Smith and restore order to the Matrix; as we saw in the train-station scene, this is important NOT only because the Machines need to control the Matrix for energy but also because there is a danger that Smith might figure out how to cross the Matrix-Machine interface and infect the entire Machine world.

The Machines agree to jack Neo into the Matrix to fight Smith. Previously to this, the Oracle had sacrificed herself by allowing Smith to take her over; this seemed at the time like a victory for Smith but was in fact part of the Oracle's plot. The Smith-Oracle CORRECTLY foresees that he is the one who will defeat Neo; that's why he has decided to fight Neo alone. Neo on the other hand sees that there is no point in fighting, and sacrifices himself. After a moment of hesitation (as Smith-Oracle, he has already foreseen what happens next, but fears it for a reason he cannot understand) Smith takes over Neo.

There are a number of interpretations of what happens after that. One is that the Machines now possess a direct jack to the Smith virus, through Neo's body; they send a pulse of electricity through Neo's body which kills him, his Smith overwrite and thus all the Smiths at once (but not necessarily the other Matrix inhabitants). Another is that Smith has achieved his programmed purpose (killing the One) and since all programs without a purpose are deleted, this allows the machine logic to order him to delete. A third interpretation is that Smith and Neo are opposites (as the Oracle said, his negative) so they cancel each other out.

Anyway in the end peace is restored to the Matrix on Neo's terms -

1. A temporary truce, the Machines will not attack Zion and the humans will not fight the machines.

2. Those who choose to leave the Matrix of their own free will, will be allowed to do so without interference by the Machines.

The terms are not very good for the Machines, but as the Architect remarks, only a human could break a deal. Neo is the savior of both the human world (Zion, by making a truce) and the Machine world (the City and Matrix, by defeating Smith) so both sides owe him. It is left ambiguous whether the truce will be successful and permanent... or not...

This is a good post

Ok, a couple things to augment the discussion:

Humans: The Machines were designed with a purpose: to serve man. Even though they rebelled, even though they enslaved man, that purpose still exists. If every human was destroyed, the machines would essentially have no reason to go on. This is what the architect is referring to when he says "we're prepared for a lower level of existence" (paraphrased) ... the machines wouldn't commit suicide, but what could they really do outside of "exist"?

Smith/Oracle: The Oracle says she can't see past a decision she doesn't understand; therefore, she is incapable of seeing what will happen after she allows Smith to absorb her into Meta-Smith. However, once she has been absorbed into Smith, she is no longer restricted: she can see the rest of the movie. She sees that Neo will sacrifice himself to Smith and end the war. That's why Smith laughs -- and why the other Smiths are confused. The knowledge that Neo "wins" is not available to the Meta-Smith; all they see is his defeat.

Neo and the Sentinels: The Matrix is tied into the power system of the machines (because the humans inside of it are combined with a source of fusion blah blah blah). Neo can control/change the Matrix. Therefore, he can control the source of the machines' power. However, his control is not absolute (hence going above the clouds), and it's a great tax of his will.

The End (Smith/Neo): When Neo destroys Smith at the end of the first movie, he is actually splitting himself into two: Neo and Smith. As long as the two are separate, Neo can't fulfill the prophecy--he can't reach the source by himself. When Neo sacrifices himself to Smith at the end, Neo/Smith is now in contact with the source, and the prophecy is fulfilled.

Now, to go deeper, we need to go to Mobil station at the beginning of the third film. If you are versed in Hindu mythology, the Mobil station scene actually tells you what's going to happen. Rama-Chandra (the 7th incarnation) stands in front of Neo (the 6th incarnation -- remember what the architect says about their being 5 predecessors) with his daughter (Sati) between them. Sati means "sacrifice". Therefore, for Neo to become Rama-Chandra, he must sacrifice himself. Interestingly enough, in the mythology, the 6th incarnation does meet the 7th. When Morpheus is talking to Link, Link asks if they have Neo. Morpheus says "Don't you see him?" and Link responds "I saw something, but I didn't know what it was". This is Neo already transformed into the 7th incarnation, yet still not realized until he sacrifices himself.

As is this

 

[BCLG100]

i felt they left the ending ambiguous so in the future they can all cash in again and make another poorer film

 

[Chukchi Husky]

i felt they left the ending ambiguous so in the future they can all cash in again and make another poorer film

They are kind of, except it's not a film they're making, but an MMORPG.