I Think I Solved Italy

Again, I already observed that these are awful leader choices for Italy, because all of the Florentine, Genoese, Napoleon, Venetian flavor is gutted with the choice of a 19th century Italian leader.
There have been plenty of civs with modern components that also represented the ancient, etc eras of that civ. Civ 5's Germany had a modern leader with an ancient ability, for example. Ethiopia, in both 4 and 5, had steles with Leaders way later than the ancient era.
 
A very interesting discussion: thank you PhoenicianGold, for starting it.

If I may, I'd like to both widen the discussion and narrow it. First, widening:

The case of the Italian City States, roughly 1000 CE to 1500 CE, is analogous to the Greek City States 700 BCE to 300 BCE or the German 'States' from 1000 CE to 1800 CE: in each case a common Culture, Language, and (mostly) Religion, but almost never any Political Unity or single Leader unless the term is stretched considerably. In every case 'unity' was achieved by being conquered by someone else: France/Austria for the Italian states, Alexander for the Greeks, Napoleon for the Germans. - which is Not a good model for a Civilization in the game, needless to say!

The problem then, is to establish a 'model' for a City State Civ (yes, I can hear the Groans, we've thrashed this over before) that encompasses Cultural/Language Unity and Political Disunity at the same time, and also provides a semi-historical 'path' to becoming a 'real' Civ: as all three of the examples, Italy, Germany, and Greece, eventually did.

I think the City State Model is a very good basis for this: what has to be added is a mechanism for the City State Civ to become a Unified Civ without having to be 'unified' by external conquest. This could be as simple as a Suzereignty Mechanism expanded to include 'assimilation' if the parties involved share Culture/Language/Religion. The Culture/Language could be set by the fact that the one city was founded from the other or was 'influenced' culturally over a long period - many of the 'Italian' Cities in southern Italy were in fact, originally founded by Greek City States: Taranto, Syracuse, Palermo, for three examples - but are all now and have been for centuries, "Italian" in virtually all respects.

Now, Narrowing:

To get the various 'flavors' of the Italian City States (cultural, commercial, military, etc) may I suggest that when a city is founded, you select the Type first. This, then, generates the name of the city: Venice = commercial, Florence = cultural, Milano = production/industral, etc.
The Piazza would be the Special Italian District for all the 'Italian' City States ( and building it might 'trigger' the Cultural assimilation process for the eventual Unified Italian Civ). The Bonuses, adjacency and otherwise, generated from the Piazza would depend on the type of City State: in Venice it would provide Commercial/Trade/ Gold Bonuses to, say, Harbor or Commercial Districts built adjacent, in Florence Cultural bonuses to Theatre Districts or City Centers, etc.
Piazza might even be a 'Building' in the City Center rather than a separate District: the point is that it would be the Unique for the Italian City States to both emphasize their individual uniqueness and provide a 'push' to form the eventual Italian Civilization in the Industrial/Modern Era (or later: from my brief travels in Italy in the 1960s, I could make a case that as late as then northern and southern Italy were no more unified than the northern and southern USA in 1861. . .)

And, to widen the concept again, a similar mechanism/Unique can be established for both of the other 'classic City State' Civs: Greek cities could build an Agora District/City Center Building and German City States the Rathaus as their respective Uniques to eventually trigger their assimilation into a 'normal' Civilization.
 
I think you could almost double up on what each "city state" could be so you don't have to build a enormous city list.

Venice: Commercial or Industrial
Milan: Industrial or Militaristic (or even cultural as modern Milan is a fashion capital of the world)
Turin: Religious or Industrial
Genoa: Commercial or Militaristic
etc.
 
A very interesting discussion: thank you PhoenicianGold, for starting it.

If I may, I'd like to both widen the discussion and narrow it. First, widening:

The case of the Italian City States, roughly 1000 CE to 1500 CE, is analogous to the Greek City States 700 BCE to 300 BCE or the German 'States' from 1000 CE to 1800 CE: in each case a common Culture, Language, and (mostly) Religion, but almost never any Political Unity or single Leader unless the term is stretched considerably. In every case 'unity' was achieved by being conquered by someone else: France/Austria for the Italian states, Alexander for the Greeks, Napoleon for the Germans. - which is Not a good model for a Civilization in the game, needless to say!

The problem then, is to establish a 'model' for a City State Civ (yes, I can hear the Groans, we've thrashed this over before) that encompasses Cultural/Language Unity and Political Disunity at the same time, and also provides a semi-historical 'path' to becoming a 'real' Civ: as all three of the examples, Italy, Germany, and Greece, eventually did.

I think the City State Model is a very good basis for this: what has to be added is a mechanism for the City State Civ to become a Unified Civ without having to be 'unified' by external conquest. This could be as simple as a Suzereignty Mechanism expanded to include 'assimilation' if the parties involved share Culture/Language/Religion. The Culture/Language could be set by the fact that the one city was founded from the other or was 'influenced' culturally over a long period - many of the 'Italian' Cities in southern Italy were in fact, originally founded by Greek City States: Taranto, Syracuse, Palermo, for three examples - but are all now and have been for centuries, "Italian" in virtually all respects.

Now, Narrowing:

To get the various 'flavors' of the Italian City States (cultural, commercial, military, etc) may I suggest that when a city is founded, you select the Type first. This, then, generates the name of the city: Venice = commercial, Florence = cultural, Milano = production/industral, etc.
The Piazza would be the Special Italian District for all the 'Italian' City States ( and building it might 'trigger' the Cultural assimilation process for the eventual Unified Italian Civ). The Bonuses, adjacency and otherwise, generated from the Piazza would depend on the type of City State: in Venice it would provide Commercial/Trade/ Gold Bonuses to, say, Harbor or Commercial Districts built adjacent, in Florence Cultural bonuses to Theatre Districts or City Centers, etc.
Piazza might even be a 'Building' in the City Center rather than a separate District: the point is that it would be the Unique for the Italian City States to both emphasize their individual uniqueness and provide a 'push' to form the eventual Italian Civilization in the Industrial/Modern Era (or later: from my brief travels in Italy in the 1960s, I could make a case that as late as then northern and southern Italy were no more unified than the northern and southern USA in 1861. . .)

I think Germany and Greece can get a pass without this mechanic. Germany because Magna Germania was a thing long before Napoleon and so if not politically "Germany" existed culturally and independently for some period prior to Frankish rule. And although on principle Greece was extremely similar to Italy, the identitarian resonance of Italian city states is just that much stronger to facilitate the model. Ask an average player what type of city state Corinth or Thebes should be and they probably couldn't tell you.

And I think part of this is just a consequence of history and how VI chooses to define facets of civilization; much of the mechanical differentiation between districts is rooted in the Renaissance and Industrial eras, not the classical era. So I think Greece not quite excelling in the city state model might just be an unfortunate side effect of existing too early (same thing with Phoenicia). I think a game which emphasized differences on a classical/ancient scale might have been more facilitative of the idea.

As for your observations on unification and the piazza, while I don't want to presume Vatican dominance or throw out the piazza idea, I had a conversation elsewhere about "liberating" cities into city states that developed some interesting design space. Much like how Venice took over city states with trade, there are several ways a central city state could "convert" city states into joining their civ.

To my mind, if it were Vatican City State leading this proposed civ, then it could acquire city states by simply converting them to its religion. We already have the missionary mechanic in place so most of the development work is done. And an alternative means of establishing control in city states could be to have a UB in the Basilica as a means of spying on or influencing cities outside of your empire.

I am not sure how I feel about how the piazza should be implemented. On the one hand flavorfully a piazza doubling up on district typing would create specialized powerhouses. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to make city states so lopsided as to be unsustainable. The piazza would likely need some general bonuses as a balancing measure. So perhaps it provides additional culture/production/whatever adjacent to a specific district, but also universally provides some housing and food?

I think you could almost double up on what each "city state" could be so you don't have to build a enormous city list.

Venice: Commercial or Industrial
Milan: Industrial or Militaristic (or even cultural as modern Milan is a fashion capital of the world)
Turin: Religious or Industrial
Genoa: Commercial or Militaristic
etc.

I quite like this idea as well. Give each city state TWO district types?!?!? Fans would be floored haha.
 
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I think Germany and Greece can get a pass without this mechanic. Germany because Magna Germania was a thing long before Napoleon and so if not politically "Germany" existed culturally and independently for some period prior to Frankish rule. And although on principle Greece was extremely similar to Italy, the identitarian resonance of Italian city states is just that much stronger to facilitate the model. Ask an average player what type of city state Corinth or Thebes should be and they probably couldn't tell you.

So what distinction are you making between Germany and Italy? Both had common language and culture but no common political unity (after the Roman Empire, anyway), and the individual 'political units' within each had distinctively individual character. The biggest difference, in fact, was that Germany had a smaller population density than Italy, so that many of the 'city states' of consequence in Germany had provincial names rather than city titles: Saxony, Bavaria, Rheinland-Pfalz, Prussia, and only a few were single City States: Frankfurt-am-Main, Hesse-Darmstadt, Mainz and Koln (last two: Electorates). For game purposes, though, they all functioned like City States, unable to 'expand' and control the entire German Cultural/linguistic realm until Prussia managed it in the 19th century. Even then there were still 'internal' distinctions among the 'states' of Germany that persisted: the Bavarian Army was administered separately from the 'German' Army right up to World War One, 50 years after they were supposedly and integral part of Germany.

Not to be too much of a cynic, but I challenge you to find an 'average player' that could tell you what type of city state Milan or Bologna were, or to name more than three Italian Renaissance City States even if you spotted them Venice. As a one-time history teacher, I can tell you it is almost impossible to overestimate the historical illiteracy of the 'average player'. CivFanatics' are definitely not the average player group.

And I think part of this is just a consequence of history and how VI chooses to define facets of civilization; much of the mechanical differentiation between districts is rooted in the Renaissance and Industrial eras, not the classical era. So I think Greece not quite excelling in the city state model might just be an unfortunate side effect of existing too early (same thing with Phoenicia). I think a game which emphasized differences on a classical/ancient scale might have been more facilitative of the idea.

Have to respectfully disagree: most of the 'mechanical differentiation between districts' is utterly artificial and designed purely for game mechanics and with almost no basis in reality. Just for examples, 'Holy Site' locations for Temples or buildings for religious observance were almost always in the center of a city, not separate from it. 'Encampments' as centers for military training were temporary sites, except possibly for the 'Field of Mars' next to Rome, unless they were permanent billets for armies like the Roman Castra or Border Forts. Heck, the Barracks as such wasn't used in Europe until the very late Renaissance, and even then, for instance in Prussia, they were scattered throughout the towns and cities as individual rooms for troops, not centralized areas.
This is not to criticize the District concept: once the decision was made to spread out installations on the map, they had to have some 'structure' for placing Buildings and Bonuses, and given the huge range of possibilities in historical cities from a huge variety of cultures and Civs, there was/is bound to be a lot of artificiality to whatever they came up with. Thinking that the Districts are specific to anything historical is a mistake, though: they are artificial constructs that we can, therefore, adapt to whatever Game Mechanic we want to implement.

As for your observations on unification and the piazza, while I don't want to presume Vatican dominance or throw out the piazza idea, I had a conversation elsewhere about "liberating" cities into city states that developed some interesting design space. Much like how Venice took over city states with trade, there are several ways a central city state could "convert" city states into joining their civ.

I agree that there could/should be a variety of ways to 'include' City States into a a Civ, but in the specific case of turning a Civ composed of culturally related City States into a 'normal' Civ I think there has to be a method of indicating which City States are related enough to include. Venice is a good example: she dominated and controlled a number of cities outside Italy (some Far Outside), but none of them outside Italy proper ever became part of an Italian State. In fact, just about the only indicator left of any Venetian influence in most of them is the occasional 'Venetian lighthouse' as in Khanea in Crete. Likewise, the many 'Greek City States' founded outside Greece all became parts of other States: Italy (Syracuse, Taranto), France (Marsalla), Turkey (the 'Ionian' cities).
We could simply use the current 'Loyalty' mechanic, which is directly related to proximity, and include a Cultural Component (including, as you state below, Religion) which would rather neatly relate the conversion of City States into a Unified Civ to also having a contiguous 'cultural/linguistic/geographical' set of borders.

To my mind, if it were Vatican City State leading this proposed civ, then it could acquire city states by simply converting them to its religion. We already have the missionary mechanic in place so most of the development work is done. And an alternative means of establishing control in city states could be to have a UB in the Basilica as a means of spying on or influencing cities outside of your empire.

IF the Vatican City State was to use a religious conversion mechanic, then either the City State would have to have a guaranteed religion, like Arabia now perhaps, or a serious, almost automatic Religious Bonus from the start, or it would wind up being a Dead End Civ whenever it 'misses out' on a Religion.

I am not sure how I feel about how the piazza should be implemented. On the one hand flavorfully a piazza doubling up on district typing would create specialized powerhouses. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to make city states so lopsided as to be unsustainable. The piazza would likely need some general bonuses as a balancing measure. So perhaps it provides additional culture/production/whatever adjacent to a specific district, but also universally provides some housing and food?

Agree. IF we differentiate City States from Civ Cities by allowing them only one District, then certainly that one District has to be multi-purpose or the City State winds up , as you say, 'unsustainable' or wildly unbalanced.
On the other hand, we could get some of the same effect by simply making it harder for City States (of any kind) to build Districts: perhaps requiring a 5 Pop per District instead of 3, which for most City States would allow them to build only 1 District until the Classical Era or even later, depending on their position and terrain. Then make the 'special' District for that City State available early or first, and that District sets the 'tone' for the City State and also indicates which 'Culture Group' they can be unified with.

This is simply Mechanics within the Civ VI framework. Right now City States are distinct from Civs and don't join them except by Conquest. Once we decide that they may be 'specially founded' by a given Civ and eventually 'voluntarily' join a Civ or Form a Civ, and therefore should have Special Characteristics somewhere between those of a 'normal' City State and a Civ City, like being able to build Districts at all, the rest is hashing out the details and mechanics of how to make it work in the game . . .
 
I keep seeing the piazza as a suggested unique district, you guys realize it is a square right? in the city center? It would not really work as a district, besides what would it replace and why?
 
I keep seeing the piazza as a suggested unique district, you guys realize it is a square right? in the city center? It would not really work as a district, besides what would it replace and why?
It could always replace the city center itself, I guess.
 
I keep seeing the piazza as a suggested unique district, you guys realize it is a square right? in the city center? It would not really work as a district, besides what would it replace and why?

And Hansa areas were just rows of warehouses and some office buildings in various Baltic cities usually very close to the harbor if not part of it. In reality, most districts would be within the city center until the late industrial where mass transit became common. The only exceptions would be some holy sites and harbors.
 
And Hansa areas were just rows of warehouses and some office buildings in various Baltic cities usually very close to the harbor if not part of it. In reality, most districts would be within the city center until the late industrial where mass transit became common. The only exceptions would be some holy sites and harbors.

But a piazza is literally the city center and again, what district would it replace and why? A unique building in the theater square would make more sense, heck a unique encampment district or fort would make more sense seeing how Italian fortifications impacted warfare massively in the 16th century.

A piazza is just a really uninspired idea.
 
But a piazza is literally the city center and again, what district would it replace and why? A unique building in the theater square would make more sense, heck a unique encampment district or fort would make more sense seeing how Italian fortifications impacted warfare massively in the 16th century.

A piazza is just a really uninspired idea.
It could replace the sewer and come earlier.

I'm advocating one of the typical "torre" (as found by the dozens/hundreds in all Northern Italian cities, even if most aren't standing any more - only in San Gimignano can you nowadays get a feeling for this look). Replaces the ancient wall (doesn't make sense historically) and generates gold (they were built by rich families) besides the usual wall ability.

I think you could almost double up on what each "city state" could be so you don't have to build a enormous city list.

Venice: Commercial or Industrial
Milan: Industrial or Militaristic (or even cultural as modern Milan is a fashion capital of the world)
Turin: Religious or Industrial
Genoa: Commercial or Militaristic
etc.
You could extend that to even more - all of those (and pretty much any other major CS in North Italy) could easily be Commercial, Industrial, Cultural and Militaristic. It might be weird to have a militaristic Venice or a industrial Florence for some, but it certainly isn't wrong per se and you can easily make an argumentation for it.
This wouldn't be unprecedented as well: we have Brussels and Buenos Aires as industrial CS, despite this not being the first specialization that comes to mind (and especially Brussels' bonus). Similarly, Geneva and Fez as scientific CS, when you'd probably think of religious first in both cases (although I can see why they made both scientific and I can understand the bonuses).
 
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Wow that is presumptuous. Never mind that VI's mechanical design space has nowhere near been exhausted yet. Never mind the fact that VI is clearly designed to be a tentpole to be supported long term and bring in regular incremental income. Never mind all the intensive research and polish put into the art design of staple civs.

No, it's not good enough. Throw it all out. Start over. Not even because VI is especially unsuccessful at what it does, but because you haven't bothered to understand VI's design philosophy and lack the imagination to see how it's far from finished.



Vatican pops up time and again in proposal threads. Multiple mods have been made for V. Two Sicilies had a civ mod but no one was particularly begging for it. I have yet to see a thread or mod dedicated to Florence.

I consider this particular counterpoint to be one from ignorance. An "I don't know, I haven't looked into it, therefore there probably isn't a clear answer." That's simply not true. Vatican is a perennial request.

I don't even like Catholicism. I've never supported a pure Vatican civ and I never will, because the Catholic church is generally a massive ideological snowball of regressive conservative ignorance and accumulated hoarding of wealth. It's power lies in centuries of exploitation, not accomplishment. But giving the Vatican something to manipulate captures the feel of Vatican that it is perhaps the only way I could accept it in a civ game.



Florence didn't ultimately take over and lead that many city states. Tuscany was tiny.

You yourself acknowledge that the Papal States were more feudal in nature, which dovetails with the City State idea much better than Florence.



This...is an awful idea. Displays a completely shallow understanding of the rich cultural flavor that has been imbued in each civ in VI as a consequence of consolidating culturally related civs as opposed to desperately trying to scrape together design space for things like Assyria and Austria.

You expect the devs to be able to divide and stretch each civ into two leader personalities, two sets of uniques and abilities, two sets of musical compositions? More importantly, you expect such an esoteric, pedantic portrayal of history would somehow sell better than VI which has maintained an extremely high level of global resonance?

We are never going to agree on this point. It's fundamentally bad game design, especially in light of the fact that modular leaders far more elegantly accomplish this while conserving development resources and iconicity. Your solution doesn't fix anything, and in fact only creates twice as many problems for the developers.

And all for the sake of Frederick and Maximilian? Another generic general-king and another generic Hapsburg? How utterly boring.


You can't really say that they followed a design philosophy of grouping similar cultures when they put Canada or Australia in the game. Canada, Australia and America are culturally similar and have followed a similar cultural path of post-colonial settler colonies independent of Great Britain drawing upon English roots but moving in an enlightenment direction. There isn't a real cultural differentiation between the two.
 
I understand that they would work a bit like puppet cities in civ V and that loyalty could be interesting with a city state approach. But based on what would the cities choose their identity? Name? Terrain? Chronological order? Random?

The most fair way would be kind of like the Civ5 pathfinders - when you found a city state, you can pick what type it is, and the name is selected from a sublist at random. You can't pick multiple of the same type in a row though, it forces you to branch out at least a few times before returning to the same.

You lose direct control of them the moment you found them. They need some sort of identity to develop on their own.

Just so long as you get major bonuses towards envoys, then I won't mind this one bit. But otherwise you run into the classic problem of having a civ that is based on gameplay that they aren't notably good at. It doesn't have to be an all encompassing advantage, but it should at least be decent enough, given the influence the pope had not just with city states but with all of europe overall.

The big problem, OP, that I see overall with this proposal is that it still doesn't encapsulate all of Italian history, which was your goal at the outset. To rectify this, I would propose that
  • Consolidate this whole city state scheme as being Innocent III's unique leader ability, including envoy bonuses. Possibly also a special ability to work the fourth row of tiles out, since you will only ever have one city, and wonders and districts take up space now...it seems powerful, but again: restricted to one city. And those city state powers are useless if you don't have space to build the appropriate districts for them.
  • Add an alternate modern leader, Garibaldi or Emmanuel or whomever, with a more traditional take on civ design. UU of Redshirts (replaces infantry), UB/UI and UA tbd.
  • Make both of them alternate leaders for Rome, giving the Legion to Trajan as a unique unit and giving Rome/Italy a more generic unique unit. Off the top of my head, I propose that, given Italy's religious tradition, that it get a unique ability to help it get a religion and be better at that somehow, and that it's new UU should be a special missionary. Religion was a big deal for the Italians, whether following Jupiter or Jesus.
  • Adjust civ naming so that it shows up as "Rome" under Trajan and "Italy" under the other two. Or "The Papal States" under Innocent and Italy is only for the modern incarnation. Possibly also fix the name of the capital to the leader rather than the civ if it's not already like that, so that if it is appropriate for the modern leader to be based in Turin, since Rome was not originally the capital, and maybe even Rome should remain as a city state if Italy is in modern mode.
 
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