[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

[neilkaz]

I don't know whether everyone for MOO2 has moved to Orion Nebula but I'll continue to post here about ICE as it seems those Speriumnorth forums are blocked for me at work.

I just lost my first ICEx 10L game using the same UniBalanced super race, but being unable to now take GC+10. I'm not terribly proud of how I played this game and my plans surely failed.

I started dead center in the galaxy, which is great in Vanilla for blitzers but in IceX can lead to multiple front wars. Psilons were to my left, and left unchecked they can develop to be nasty and difficult to knock out while spreading their high tech to other AI's.

So after my monster frigates took two more nice systems I went after those techies with my FF's and a BB just after T100 and was doing OK. However, I needed many transports to take their planets and once they got Z-armor and H-armor I was bogged down needing a couple more BB's. Then the Cats below me DOWed and the Gnols and Tri's above me DOWed. I could barely deal with this and was helped by capturing some of their ships and scrapping for techs and cash.

Rare for me to use more to defend my planets then ships and SB's but this time I felt the need for Ground Batteries and that saved me for a while.

EDIT: In thinking where I went wrong here. Rather than spending 20,000 RP on Adv Chem at a critical time when I was in wars I needed to get some other techs to help my ships and defenses. However, I was afraid some AI would take Orion. In one casual IceX game I saw a runaway AI kill the Guardian on T242pw!!! My chem tech method of Trit-A, Pol Proc, I-cells (as D cells usually aren't sufficient) Nano Dis (much better in Ice), Microlite (+1 p/p) and then A- armor didn't seem to work out as I was too slow to A-armor due to early wars and not having enough research econ.

A long Hyperspace flux hit and by the time it lifted I couldn't do a thing to the Psilons as they had too much. I finished off the Cats on T208 and felt that my only chance was to get Adv Chem to MIRV Zeons (never managed to steal Pulsons from anyone) to kill the Guardian. Psilons took back a system and trashed a few of my planets but on T231 they took a peace treaty when I gave them another system. Gnols accepted peace then for 10% trib treaty.

Now I could finish the Tris who, in spite of me having lots more than them, never wanted peace. They were gone T244, but this left me open in the center of the galaxy and I was jumped from each side by the Ants and the Mecks. I held this off reasonably and managed to finish Adv Chem, but the Darloks then DOWed me and the three pronged attack was too much to handle. I was wiped out T263.

 

[Rocco.40]

Wow, interesting game and starting in dead center is tough, I will give you that.
Just as a reminder for me, this race had as negatives Low-G and Repulsive?
If so, being repulsive and starting in center must have made this episode 1 level more difficult too.

everyone for MOO2 has moved to Orion Nebula

guess some people are here and other at spherium...
i will stay active at both sites and will keep writing about new finds in the exe @ spherium.

hope that you keep Death Ray and default and allow the player to change it for himself.

Although I have been considering the option to have the Portal as default, I think the randomness is nice and I really don't like the effect for non-Antaran games.
Hence the quick fix option for gamers who always have Antarans on.

 

[Rocco.40]

I have finally found offsets to change the balance of the planet climates.
(Toxic, Radiated, Barren, etc...)

So question: who would like less Toxic planets in the galaxy?

 

[neilkaz]

I have finally found offsets to change the balance of the planet climates.
(Toxic, Radiated, Barren, etc...)

So question: who would like less Toxic planets in the galaxy?

A few comments.

1) Just about everything is perfect for Ice 10L however, making Psionics cheap and Tele Mute expensive is dubious to state it politely since Psionics does the same or more depending upon Gov't.

2) Spying is fine the way it is and is one of the most fun parts of this game for me. Buried in the threads at "sperium" are posts and graphs and formulas. When one forgoes other high end techs for +20 spies one expects them to be considerably better, both offensively and defensively.

3) Toxic planet balance is fine as is. Honestly this is realistic and gives a purpose to farm buildings.

4) Outpost ships are next to useless now. Have you gone too far with that nerf?

5) Dim. Port. is fine as it is. I agree with the new story line that this isn't supposed to be a near freebee tech. Luck into it or steal it, or win otherwise.

6) GC vote is fine at about 25 turns between them. One needs a way to formally win overpowering games quickly.

Just my opinions after many hundreds of MOO2 games vs AI's. .. neilkaz ..

 

[Dukinson]

I like toxics too, gives tolerant a tiny bit of late game leverage. Ya tolerant is part of the broken unitol but I believe unification is doing most of the evil.

Outposts, I firmly believe Rocco has been traumatized by blitzing missile ships and will alter any number of other game mechanics on a path of nurfing destruction to stop them!

Please Rocco... just change the wicked missiles! Larger, more expensive... and stop torturing those poor outpost ships!

 

[Rocco.40]

Just a few replies.

1) Making Psionics cheap and Tele Mute expensive causes no change for the spy bonus, it is still +10 for both and the situation is unchanged for Demo or Uni governments. It is an attempt to make Dictatorship and Feudal more attractive. Effectively the change for these two is that a 10% morale boost is already available at 1200 cum. RP instead of 5700 RP. From a.i. perspective: a.i. tends to tech relatively late into sociology plus quite a lot of race variants are Uni or Demo's. so I believe this change favours - for once in fact - human player more than a.i. But open to discuss it offcourse.

2) I have no intention to change the +20 spying bonus. I have restored the sabotage chances back to classic values as in vdc they are low. (perhaps optimized for 1-1 MP). Also, I did increase the bonus for spy number 63 by +1

3) Toxic - I have found this code yesterday and am just curious to hear some ideas, as this is the first time in moo2 history that the presence of every planet climate can be exactly controlled. Toxic was just the first that came to mind.

4) Outpost ships. Perhaps I have gone too far with that nerf. The Outpost Ships shows that not all game types can be optimized into 1 mod. Consider these 3 game types: Blitz game, Economy game, Strategic game (Dukinson I am not forgetting you...).
The Outpost Ship is now close to optimal for a challenging Blitz. The issue why Blitz is too easy is not primarily the missile ships, it is that a.i. has too little time to build defenses because Human player can reach him too quickly. For example Blitz games can also be won quickly by sabotaging Star Bases.
If I was allowed only 1 mod in classic moo2 to make blitz more interesting, I would remove the OP ships alltogether.
For economy games, where OP ships are used more casual, I might have nerfed it too much.
For strategic games, where OP ships can be your only scout, it has been nerfed too much.
Probably most ice players are economy players, as I now only of 1 other blitzer apart from myself.
This change is not set in stone.

6)

GC vote is fine at about 25 turns between them. One needs a way to formally win overpowering games quickly.

Yes, absolutely!

7) Rumours of traumatization must be 'nerfed' immediately

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Reading back, I see a lot of production race tweaking, but have any of you strong players done much testing of Creative race builds?

What do you think about the racial pick price of Creative right now? With the various tweaks that let non-creative enemies play almost as pseudo-creative (those important early singleton techs), I wonder if 15 points isn't a bit much.

 

[Dukinson]

Roccos next patch:

Outpost ships now cost 1000
Outpost ships cannot move
Outpost ships randomly crash into your planets destroying a random structure
Outpost ships spontanously summon Antarans
Outpost ships may cause gout
Outpost ships may cause the condition known as "sausage fingers"
Outpost ships may cause possession from the prince of darkness

For a full list of outpost ship nurfs please consult your physician.

 

[neilkaz]

Reading back, I see a lot of production race tweaking, but have any of you strong players done much testing of Creative race builds?

What do you think about the racial pick price of Creative right now? With the various tweaks that let non-creative enemies play almost as pseudo-creative (those important early singleton techs), I wonder if 15 points isn't a bit much.

I prefer production and science picks to creative. Of course in Vanilla I could mess around with what ever I want, but here in IceX it is important to not fall too far behind the AI's quickly or you might have three of them carving you up.

In Vanilla creative cost 40% of your positive picks but in Ice it only costs 33% so it is probably reasonable now. That being said, I certainly wouldn't think of having it cost more.

 

[neilkaz]

OK my next game is going much better. Same UniBalanced super race. This time a start in the extreme upper left corner. 3 close enough stars and I can turtle in the corner and build up to 14 planets with autolabs and then certainly not be a laggard in tech. First things first however, as the Tri and Ants are nearby and the Tri's are soon getting doubled and suffering so I jumped in to make certain I took their HW and another system. They gone T161pw.

Ants soon try to jump all over me which was silly since they weren't superior. A-armor T191pw and refit my ships and punish them. EMG quite useful to destroy the occasional stray BB or 2 they send at me.

T220 now and the Ants will be gone in no more than 10 turns. Of course I have Adv Gov't now and am tech'ing towards mutating into Warlord and +10 GC as usual.

The increase in cost for Uni to 17 from 16 means that I cannot take GC+10 to negate LG, but I fully agree with the increased cost! Good balance, Rocco.

 

[Rocco.40]

About Creative or traits in general;
Comparison can be seen here
ICE in 10pt scale comparison
If you click on the table a 20pt comparison will be shown.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Yeah, seen that. Still, if it's nobody's favourite pick in creating powerful races for difficult games, then that could imply it's not worth its current price. After all, what you get from the trait is different in ICE than in vanilla.

Though I can see what a headache it would be to balance this trait, especailly after what you did with the tech tree. Plus the differences between early vs late game, plus the possibility of tech-dumping in diplomacy to get some early peace...

Oh well, my DemCreAqu+0.5BC race is still fun, even if I have to stick to normal Icemod with it

 

[Rocco.40]

Still, if it's nobody's favourite pick in creating powerful races for difficult games, then that could imply it's not worth its current price.

Yeah, +15 is probably on the high side, and it could be valued +14 as well.

plus the possibility of tech-dumping in diplomacy to get some early peace...

This is a big reason that a Crea + Charisma race can be succesful in keeping a.i.'s at bay, and focussing on a quick Xeno Psychology empowers such a race even more.
Not a strong eco race though, but can be good fun and perhaps works even better in regular ice than in X.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

So I decided to brave IcemodX after all with my creative race.

First try I don't remember exactly, except that I got into a war I didn't want right after early colonization, and lost the war of attrition.

Second try, today: DemCreAqu+0.5BC / -LowG-Spy-GC
Spawned in a lovely spot, a bit to the left of the northwest corner. Had lots of hopes for colonizing that whole corner, which was indeed empty. The near-infinite cash would speed up setting up planetary defenses, and Creative would make sure those defenses were varied and adequately powerful.

...long story short, I had repulsive Darloks to the east and got overrun by a stealthy armada in the middle of my colonization phase, before I built much in the way of the defenses. My armada of 2 Mirv Nuke Frigates was essentially worthless.

Third try, just now: DemCre+1F+1S+ArtLHW / -LowG-Spy-GC
Spawned bottom middle of the screen. I think I got lucky. To the east, 6 parsecs away I had a Hydra guarding a Huge Ultra Rich Gaia. As soon as I took that, I transferred much of my population to it, speeding up further colonization.

My first neighbour was a nonrepulsive Elerians for a change, so after a shower of gifts they agreed to some treaties. Second and third were, respectively, repulsive Silicoids and xenophobic Klakons - let me tell you, those Klakons made me wait before they agreed to a Nonaggression Pact. Silicoids got themselves into some war with whoever so they didn't bother me.

Now (turn 187) I have another Gaia (this time merely Large and Rich), and a total of 6 systems with 16 planets, of which I've colonized 12, and of which 3 are good (homeworld and the 2 gaias) and the rest are currently feeding pop to those 3.

I've had a few close calls with other races calling me out on supposed spying (framed), but no war. I have no idea how a war would go for me right now if it occurred - the 3 planets I care about are fortified, at least. Looking at my lousy Fleet rating, I expect to get declared on any turn now...

Still, having fun! Thanks again for this great mod.

EDIT: Turn 214 or so: I get framed again and Alcari get really, really pissed at me. No war yet, but treaties are gone and the relations bar is low.
Turn 218: Hyperwave flux. Wow, what timing.

Just as I'm in the final stretch to Orion-worthy beam ships with HEF,Hyper-X and Gauss Cannons (+1 refinement). Truly, the Gods love me this game. And of course by the time the Flux wore off, the Alcari diplomatic ban wore off too and I was able to shower them with more gifts.

Turn 247: 5 Battleships say that Orion is mine!

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Question: what buildings do you guys find NOT worth building in all/most of your colonies?

Besides Dimensional Portal and Food Replicators, I'm wondering if anyone has ever found Artemis System Net worth the cost.

 

[Rocco.40]

Question: what buildings do you guys find NOT worth building in all/most of your colonies?

Food Replicators at #1 position. Useless building, I have tried to mod the code to make it more attractive, but no luck so far. Then there is the Bio-Funghi, which is not a building really but at +1 for only toxic, rads and barren it is pretty poor value. As to Artemis Net, I would always prefer the Fortress over the Net. In ICE 10L, the maintenance cost of the Net came down to 5 BC.


In the mean time I have made available ICE 10m, with following changes:

- Creative cost is 14.

Psilon base race gets R+2 instead of Arti HW and R+1.
3 Impossible variants had R+2 and now have Arti HW instead and are thus unchanged.
The other 3 effectively now have R+2 instead of Arti HW.​

- Warlord command points is 2 per colony.
- Outpost Ship regains Extended Fuel Tanks.
- Hit points of Merculite Missile back to classic value 8 (9).

- Map generation:

- huge gaia is maxed at 27 (28) to prevent a 43 pop bug.
- Increased max pop of a Tiny Gaia planet to 9 (8). Consequently the max pop of Tiny Terran is 7 (6) and Tiny Arid is 5 (4).
- New Arid planet values for Tolerant: 7,11,14,17,21 (6,11,15,18,23).
- ICE & ICE-X maps:

Subtly tweaked to have more Desert , Tundra and Oceans and less Toxic, Terran and Gaia's.
Changes are small but noticeable and favour Aquatic races.
Note that the effect of randomization is substantial, so a few games are needed to get a good impression of the effect.
Also, Gas Giants no longer appear in orbit ring #2, will be Asteroid Belts instead.​

- ICE-X: Reintroduced the possibility to get star systems with only 1 satellite. (1 chance swapped for an empty system and 1 for a 2 satellite system).
- ICE-MOD: Maps get somewhat more planets and less Gas Giants and Asteroids.
- COLD map: Less empty systems. Of non empty systems, 50% has 1 satellite.
- Goodmap3 by Siron: Unchanged from original, above changes not applied.​

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Have you managed to find a way to prevent AIs from screwing themselves over thanks to the Funghi, or does that still happen?

If it does - for what it's worth, my vote is to just cut them from the tech tree. I know you're hesitant to do things like that (where was that caution when you were removing the Portal from the tech tree! ), but in this case this tech literally makes the game worse and just has no prospects of being useful. You'd have to change the very mechanics (perhaps make them give a flat +4 food per planet?) for it to be worth anything, which I imagine is not worth the effort for you.

Re: Creative: nice to see the cost reduction. Still I'd like to pose a hypothetical question: what cost do you imagine Creative would have to have, before the players who know what they're doing started actually including it in their superrace choices for IceX? How low would you have to go before it became an obviously correct pick? (Obviously I'm not asking for us to go that low, I'm just trying to free the conversation from anchoring on the value from version10L or even from original Moo2)

 

[Rocco.40]

Have you managed to find a way to prevent AIs from screwing themselves over thanks to the Funghi, or does that still happen?

That still happens...

I have already found the offset for changing the food value of the funghi. I am thinking that the Funghi could be +3 (like base food + soils). Note that if you have Funghi, the Weather Controller functions on those planets. The Funghi change also requires to fix the screen info's for 'Planet info' and 'Colony info' but I haven't been able to find these yet. This kept me from making the change as I do not want to add a screen bug to my game. Perhaps next year.

Policy is that all techs stay in the game, but not per sé in the Tech Tree

 

[Rocco.40]

About Crea; it is an interesting debate but it is necessary to couple it to a strategy too.
Examples: (a) I like to play blitz strategy and in such a play Creative has no value, not even at half the current cost (7 picks). (b) If you are playing an eco strategy, meaning building a strong empire as soon as possible, then Creative could perhaps be cheaper than 14 still, but not much... 12-13 perhaps?? (c) The more you emphasize diplomacy in your game, the more value Creative will have. Diplomacy games go a bit slower and that is what Creative needs to become valuable. If you play the tactics of showering the a.i. with low value techs to get treaties and delay wars, then 14 picks is surely a good valuation for the trait, and perhaps 15 reasonable too.

 

[Markus Ramikin]

Hm, +3 but only on hostile planets? So +3 on Barren, down to +1 once terraformed to Arid?