[Idea] More important route types

[Nimek]

Now Route types have very small difference. They add movement points and some bonuses to tile improvement.

Background

In real history new route types had great impact to economy. Especially railroad had great impact to resources transportation.

Idea

Lets make route types more important by making diffrance what you can transport on them. In reality it is a big difference to transport basket of fruits by route path and to try to transport big steel blocks by it.

Programming

Lets add new tag to all resources that will inform by what route types it can be transported. City vincinity resourrces will stay as they are to allow city vincinity buildings (like iron smellter or iron workshop for iron ore resource by DH idea)

Examples

Ore resources (DH idea) will be only allowed to transport by railroad or above
Metal resources (obtained from ores) - only mud path or above
oil and gas - highway or above

Gameplay

Not every city connected to trade route will have all of resources. It will depend by what route type city is connected.

Future

It will cool to see more complex resources economy system like in example
(route type needed to connect resource)

iron ore -> iron -> iron armour / iron military equipment
(railroad) -> (road) -> ( route or mud path )

The same should be done to trade routes on water. It is impossible to btransport tons of ore in wooden small ships

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hmm... I'm not sure I'm seeing where this would really impact play in any noticeable manner... And by this, I'm saying I'm simply unaware of it by just reading this post, not that I think its a bad idea.

In your example, you're basically suggesting that you can't trade the basic unrefined ore until railroads? What other trading resources would be as justified to limit? What defines the 'type of route' exactly? Connections options to the other civ? How would this become an influencer to your decisions?

 

[LumenAngel]

and sea and river?
Lot of my cities are coastal, at least early game

 

[Nimek]

Ok i will write some info about game impact


- route path
Most basic and primitive
- connects only resources in city vincinity (cities dont schare resources each other)
people dont have wheel and it is dificult to transport anything on long distance

mud path
- basic path for wheeled units
- connects light resources from city to city like food resources

road
- connects middle resources (military resources like swords, armors and luxury resources)

paved road
-enable heavy whelled units to transport thing
- conects heavy resources like metals (not ore)

railroad
- connects very heavy resources like metal ores

In early game (before wheel) you will be unable to schare resources among cities so you will not have bonuses from resources in each city. This will make wars more dificult.

Before reserch of railroad you will have strategic cities near metal ores that willl produce metals and military equipment.

Now game is easy because you can capture a city and after revolt stop you can produce fresh strong military with only route path connection !!!

The same should be done for water trade routes. Example
Steam power will connects very heavy resources (ores) by water tiles

Imagine how hard will be to capture another continent before steam power. New captured city willl have no access to ores so entire military will must be built in old continent.

 

[LumenAngel]

But some "animal ressource" (horse, elephant...) can be transported easily even without wheel

 

[Nimek]

This is only idea. Need to be polished. I want to make some brainstorm.

 

[LumenAngel]

We need to list what need at least 2 ressource before industrial era; some can be nearly impossible to build
And some ressource are really era-oriented. I think about stone or marble. When you will be able to transport it, it will be nearly useless

This will make Via Appia and the other wonder about Railroad far more powerful than today, too... Maybe too powerful

 

[Nimek]

For me wonders like via appia or golden spike should work backward...
EX. Golden spike - if you will be first civ that build transconctinental railroad than you will have bonuses from golden spike

I belive that someone work on it.

 

[Faustmouse]

This idea is really good... It would solve the too-much-happiness-and-health-in-very-early-problem as well. And its realistic. Its hard to image how Elefants ar transported via Rafts

 

[Koshling]

The idea has merit in gameplay terms I think, but it would be very hard to code (as in complete rewrite of trade region management).

The reason is that the game keeps track of what is connected to what for trade purposes using what can be thought of as a coloring algorithm - for each player (different players will color the map differently so just consider one for now) imagine you start from some city and pick a unique color. Now color every plot that is trade-connected to that city by just flood-filling outward along trade route connected tiles (rivers, routes, coast/ocean [depending on tech]). Once you've done that for the first city pick the next city that is not yet colored and repeat like that until all cities have a color.

The colored region is what the game calls a 'plotGroup' and the color is the plot group id. Resources are attached to plotGroups, and any city with the same plotGroup id has access to that plotGroup's resources.

Now if we need different resource types to see different connectivity that implies a whole family of plotGroup's per city (one for each resource-route-requirement category). Since plotGroups are quite expensive to calculate and maintain (recalculation of plot groups when empires get severed by things like city capture is often the cause of pregnant pauses mid-turn when you capture things), and this would multiply that by the number of categories, it's both complex to do, and likely to represent a significant performance hit.

 

[Nimek]

@Koshling

Even the first step - route paths provides resorces to nearest city only (resource must be in city vincinity and cities dont share resources each other) will be so hard to implement?

If i think correct it will be simple to implement for water trade routes. Checking connection to the plotGroup and than give correct resources (depending the tech that player have). Am I right? I Think it could work even now we have tech that enables trade routes on water.

 

[Koshling]

@Koshling

Even the first step - route paths provides resorces to nearest city only (resource must be in city vincinity and cities dont share resources each other) will be so hard to implement?

If i think correct it will be simple to implement for water trade routes. Checking connection to the plotGroup and than give correct resources (depending the tech that player have). Am I right? I Think it could work even now we have tech that enables trade routes on water.

Yes, the first step would not be too hard. The water step though would be as bad as any other, since in effect the coast (or ocean without appropriate tech) is essentially just acting as another route type. If ALL resources had the same status with respect to water transport (so it connects for ANY resource) then it would be ok though I think.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip> And its realistic. Its hard to image how Elefants ar transported via Rafts

Why? Even the early settlers in America traveled down the Illinois River to the Mississippi river using rafts to transport their Horses and cattle. And then from there on down to the Gulf. Nothing strange or unrealistic at all.

JosEPh

 

[bill2505]

Why? Even the early settlers in America traveled down the Illinois River to the Mississippi river using rafts to transport their Horses and cattle. And then from there on down to the Gulf. Nothing strange or unrealistic at all.

JosEPh

so is elephant the same as horse

 

[JosEPh_II]

The point is it has been done bill. C'mon man...or are we just being obtuse?

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Its hard to image how Elefants ar transported via Rafts

Elephants swim quite well. They were also used in the conquest of "England" by the Romans. I don't think they flew in.

Civ III had a good trade mechanism
- local from the vicinity of your city or produced in your city (we have this)
- nation, produced by your nation
- imported, bought by your nation

What you could do with these varied. I believe what we already have works sort of. Our early buildings require vicinity but as you progress tech whys what they use can come from further afield.

I think that there is no need to make any big change like this. I do think we need to change the way we do some of the buildings and the metal and stone resources to simulate this difficulty in transportation.

 

[Faustmouse]

Even if they swim very well, you have to make them to do... And also, im just alking about a RAFT, I always imagined them with 2 people maximum like in empire earth^^
But ok, maybe a dumb example ^^

 

[Nimek]

@koshling

1 For me even first step will be very cool and make early game more realistic.

2 Imagine situation. City have access to trade route (all resources) but we put script in every city that removes some resources until you dont have good technology to transport them. Is it sounds good to you?

 

[Faustmouse]

How about this:

1) Ressources on the map no longer produce ressources (Ex Iron on the map with mine wont give you access to iron)

2) If you have a ressource in your city Vicinity you can build Ex Ironmine (or maybe auto-build?) which will provide you with the iron-Ressource BUT

3) All ressources would be only available in the city with the vicinity-building.

4) With techs (like Ex Railrod), the old vicinity-building will go obsolete and become replaced by a building that says: "Provides Iron-Ressource in every city"

This way, it isnt actually a matter of what type of roads connecting your cities, but at least it will make ressource-trade more tech-dependend (so Spicetrade-Tech would allow you to actually trade spices to you other cities)
You can easily add different tech-requirements to different ressources since its just a building.
If you also want to have different types of ships can carry different ressources, you can add:
Sailing AND Spicetrade: Provides Spice in All cities on the same continent.
Navigation AND Spicetrade: Provides Spice in all cities.

I think this way the biggest Problem would be 1) and 3) and I have no idea if it will be easy to implent... But at least you wont get much performance issus as if you use different traderoutes Koshling said.

 

[Nimek]

@Faustmouse

I want to achive 3 things

1 ReProgram route path to not connect cities trade route (not allow to share resources). Will only provide vicinity resources to city

2 Reprogram mud path and above to give resources (connects cities) depending which technology you have. (Script that remove resources received from trade route depending on tech that you have?)

3 Do the same (point 2) for trade routes via water tiles

Are you modder? Is it possible?