[idea] New Spellcasting Interface

[Valkrionn]

OK, I'll just wait and see

I kind of figured it would be a global pool, and obviously the mana gain would be automatic, a per turn gain or per turn reset to a maximum or something like that.

So consider the following situation: I play a magic-based civ and I go to attack the enemy with an army that contains (let's keep it simple) 5 mages.

My fear is that I will now have to start calculating how I would best divide my mana among those mages so that all 5 can be useful. Because I presume that this will be a problem, if not, what is the point of introducing a global mana pool if it does not limit what and how much you can cast.

This is more micro. This is annoying micro (yay maths!). This is a lot of micro in large armies. I guess it could work if you intend it to make magic limited but more powerful, and hence reduce the amount of mages required in a good magic-based army. I don't know, as I said, I'll wait and see. But consider me skeptical

Well, in that case yes, it is slightly more micro. Keep in mind though, you're already (or should be) planning what spells will be cast each turn.

Also... Units will only be able to use a set amount of mana each turn. One of two new unitstats. So you will never be able to funnel all your mana into one unit; It won't be able to use it.

 

[Castar]

Keep in mind though, you're already (or should be) planning what spells will be cast each turn.

Indeed I am. Per unit. I currently do not have to plan it out across my entire army.

And a per unit limit on the amount of mana it can spend per turn makes sense, but requires additional balancing (on a unit basis, now, in addition to having to balance spells against each other...), and possibly promotions to increase that limit. They would have to be automatically gained at certain levels, however, or you create a catch-22 where you can choose between a mage with a lot of spells but no way to cast them, or a mage with a lot of mana but no spells to use it on.

EDIT: the promotion thingy would most likely be partially solved by the fact that mages upgrade at certain levels. Still, the odd very high level spellcaster will need some mechanics to allow him to be either powerful within his mana-spending limit, or powerful by raising his mana-spending limit.

 

[odalrick]

Indeed I am. Per unit. I currently do not have to plan it out across my entire army.

I tend to plan spell-casting by the stack, so it won't be that much greater effort coordinate between the three or four stacks that matter.

Plus you'll have a buffer of several turns worth of stored mana so you can unload your entire magical might if you need to. A few turns down the line you might not be able to, by by then you should have won if your mages were worth it.

It will also be easier to specialize mages; partially because having a mage not cast anything will no longer be a wasted opportunity. No need to take irrelevant spells and actual specialities are other reasons.

Other minor points all add up the that I think there will actually be less micromanagement in the new system. The only thing I'm really unhappy about is the nomenclature Valkrionn uses to describe mana.

 

[Valkrionn]

Indeed I am. Per unit. I currently do not have to plan it out across my entire army.

And a per unit limit on the amount of mana it can spend per turn makes sense, but requires additional balancing (on a unit basis, now, in addition to having to balance spells against each other...), and possibly promotions to increase that limit. They would have to be automatically gained at certain levels, however, or you create a catch-22 where you can choose between a mage with a lot of spells but no way to cast them, or a mage with a lot of mana but no spells to use it on.

EDIT: the promotion thingy would most likely be partially solved by the fact that mages upgrade at certain levels. Still, the odd very high level spellcaster will need some mechanics to allow him to be either powerful within his mana-spending limit, or powerful by raising his mana-spending limit.

Magic will be more powerful; There is a valid cost to it now, it's not just a "Cast with every unit every turn!" mechanic anymore.

I don't think you're thinking through all the implications. If spells cost mana, then not casting a spell, or even not having a certain spell, is no longer a waste. Thus, taking promotions that enhance your abilities (and oh boy, will they) is a perfectly valid choice.

I tend to plan spell-casting by the stack, so it won't be that much greater effort coordinate between the three or four stacks that matter.

Plus you'll have a buffer of several turns worth of stored mana so you can unload your entire magical might if you need to. A few turns down the line you might not be able to, by by then you should have won if your mages were worth it.

It will also be easier to specialize mages; partially because having a mage not cast anything will no longer be a wasted opportunity. No need to take irrelevant spells and actual specialities are other reasons.

Other minor points all add up the that I think there will actually be less micromanagement in the new system. The only thing I'm really unhappy about is the nomenclature Valkrionn uses to describe mana.

Bah. I call it a commerce in the team forum because that's how it will be coded, even if it's not converted from the Commerce yield, and you never forget it.

Also: For those wondering, pretty much everything Odalrick said is true, he's seen the plans. There WILL be useful arcane promotions beyond spells (like he said: No reason to have every single spell now, as spell casting isn't free... And these new promotions will allow us to differentiate between Casters and Summoners. )

 

[KrugSmash]

Funny that all of this comes from what probably started as a troll thread. Speaking of which, did you ban or read-only that guy? That'd be nice.

Will the ability to take a spell as a promotion still be limited by what types of mana you have?

Will there be the same number of spells as there are now, more, or will you be pruning them down?

Will there be any spells that take multiple types of mana?

I like the sound of this system you're planning. I've always thought that the magic system, while interesting, was kind of clunky. I know Ahwaric had been planning an overhaul, I think involving reducing the number mana types down to 12 or so from the 21 in orbis (23 in rife), and removing a sphere. Though I know you've said you'd never do that for lore reasons. The point being that the magic system needs work and it sounds like your way will be very cool. And I should probably just wait for the blog post before asking these, but what the hell.

 

[Valkrionn]

Funny that all of this comes from what probably started as a troll thread. Speaking of which, did you ban or read-only that guy? That'd be nice.

I did not. Can't, actually. Not a moderator.

Will the ability to take a spell as a promotion still be limited by what types of mana you have?

Yes.

Will there be the same number of spells as there are now, more, or will you be pruning them down?

Ultimately, more, most likely. However, there are multiple types of spells, so any one unit should have access to less.

Will there be any spells that take multiple types of mana?

Will not answer that at this time.

I like the sound of this system you're planning. I've always thought that the magic system, while interesting, was kind of clunky. I know Ahwaric had been planning an overhaul, I think involving reducing the number mana types down to 12 or so from the 21 in orbis (23 in rife), and removing a sphere. Though I know you've said you'd never do that for lore reasons. The point being that the magic system needs work and it sounds like your way will be very cool. And I should probably just wait for the blog post before asking these, but what the hell.

I'll be trying to write the blog post tonight.

 

[Valkrionn]

As promised, the blogpost. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=374036

 

[Milaga]

Neverwinter Nights was made by Bioware, for Atari. Wizards made the base D&D world and rules the game was based on.

It's not germane to the conversation but D&D was made by Gary Gygax and another guy with a less memorable name for TSR. Wizards of the Coast was only involved because they had more money than they knew what to do with thanks to Magic: The Gathering and could buy out the floundering TSR.

 

[Jester Fool]

I did not. Can't, actually. Not a moderator.

Well, if you go by post count, you should be. But then again, being a moderator would take valuable time away from modding (which would be bad IMO.) My bet, 13,000+ posts by the end of the year. Hamster power!

P.S. 1.3 kicks (you know what)!!!!