1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

(Idea) Open Borders Changes

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by jma22tb, Sep 19, 2016.

  1. jma22tb

    jma22tb Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Messages:
    489
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    Idea is simple:

    Open Borders recipients
    * Growth +5% (maximum of 20)
    * Crime Threshold increased 5% (maximum of 20)
    * Tourism received increase
    * Foreign missionaries do not suffer attrition
    * Increase bargaining value

    Open Borders senders
    * Growth -5% (maximum of 20)
    * Crime Threshold decreased 5% (maximum of 20)
    * Tourism sent increase
    * Your missionaries do no suffer attrition
    * Decrease bargaining value

    The idea being to reflect what we've been seeing in history for the last 100 years or so of lax immigration policies and the effects of free movement across borders.

    It can be argued, especially most recently, that one way immigration into a country comes with an increase in crime and obviously an increase in population, as observed in Western countries.

    In the reverse, if you open borders up in another country you could effectively dump your criminals to the other country instead of jailing them, losing some of your population to emigration. This is what happens in the "third world" although they have not particularly improved their own crime situations due to a number of other reasons.

    The point being that one-way border agreements can be even more potent and reflect history and current events. It would take a fairly big number of these types of one-way agreements to reach the biggest effect and it comes with a catch.

    The changes to the value of these agreements should make it so you want 1-to-1, but for opening up someone else's or your borders to be valued higher than current levels, because if you have more people over time and higher crime it's going to potentially create serious problems, while sending people to another country comes with considerably less problems and more benefits.

    Curious what you guys think
     
  2. thecraftybee

    thecraftybee Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    226
    Your reasoning sounds flawed to me.
    If you want to make your Civ "great again" then you should open up your borders regardless. Immigrants tend to be amongst the most dynamic citizens in a country. Maybe give a bonus to gold and science in addition to the growth?

    Also your premise that immigrants are more likely to be criminal is wrong.
    Take California for example, 35% of the State's population are foreign born yet only account for 17% of the prison population.
    A 2008 report by PPI also showed that the incarceration rate across the US for foreign born criminals was 297/100,000 vs 813/100,000 for native born Americans.

    The same holds true in the UK.

    Also, I don't know how you say there is an observation of increased crime in Western countries when the crime rate across most of the western world has dropped dramatically over recent decades, across most crime categories, although perception of crime has increased significantly which helps demagogues give that impression. Despite illegal immigration (ok a crime) having tripled in the US from 1990-2013 to 11.3m people, violent crime somehow fell by 48% according to the FBI in the same period.

    I'd vote no. to these changes.
     
  3. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,215
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in California
    Code:
    Open Borders recipients
    * Growth +5% (maximum of 20)
    * Crime Threshold increased 5% (maximum of 20)
    * Tourism received increase
    * Foreign missionaries do not suffer attrition
    * Increase bargaining value
    
    Open Borders senders
    * Growth -5% (maximum of 20)
    * Crime Threshold decreased 5% (maximum of 20)
    * Tourism sent increase
    * Your missionaries do no suffer attrition
    * Decrease bargaining value
    
    Surprisingly doable.
     
  4. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,488
    I'm all for making Open Borders a more interesting deal, but I have zero interesting in politicizing the mod this way.
     
  5. jma22tb

    jma22tb Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Messages:
    489
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    Check this out:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime

    Also, it's worth pointing out that it isn't necessarily the actuality of committing crimes, but the suspicion that is created by mingling of native and foreign cultures. If a foreigner commits a crime, usually the native population cares much more about that than if a native did. This can lead to an over-emphasis on policing foreign groups and lead to a crime wave of natives, who have capitalized on the over-emphasis.

    Not every immigrant is the same either. Some people, whether by culture, religion, etc. are more hostile or defiant of laws than others. It's not much of a surprise that people who immigrate to a country currently bombing their former country might be more hostile.

    Furthermore, the increase in crime is only part of the package - the dynamic element you refer to with the fresh blood carries over to being able to add more specialists to your cities due to the growth rate. I wholly recognize the positive impact of immigration policy.

    Also, the impact of either one is actually canceled out if there is full open borders between the two civilizations in question.
     
  6. jma22tb

    jma22tb Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
    Messages:
    489
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    It's no more politicizing than claiming monarchy (Tradition) produces better culture than a republic (Progress), or that state sponsored culture (Aesthetics) is required to be the greatest, or that Big Ben is more of a representative of the Industrial Revolution than Slater Mill, etc.

    The whole idea is to come up with suggestions more than to push an agenda. That's how I and others perceive immigration historically and presently, but people can make their own contributions.
     
  7. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,488
    Except that concept you're trying to have open borders represent is a massively hot-button issue right now in both the US and Europe, the change you're suggesting at least looks on the surface level like it comes out of the alt-right, and none of those examples you listed affix the word "criminals" to some non-criminal group. Other than that, yes, they're exactly identical.

    Religious divisions and ideological pressure already represent this kind of unhappiness just fine. This isn't MAGA: The Mod.
     
  8. Dennysaurus

    Dennysaurus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    What if "crime" got replaced by boredom? Culture clash!
     
  9. thecraftybee

    thecraftybee Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    226
    Looking for the upvote button and then realise this is not Reddit. :crazyeye:
     
  10. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,488
    Vox Populi is on Reddit, too!

    I'm Skyblue_Aardvark over there, because... I mean, aardvarks, man. They're great.
     
  11. thecraftybee

    thecraftybee Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2015
    Messages:
    226
    I'm subbed to the channel, but it feels pretty quiet compared to the NQ channel and this forum. Check regularly though.
     
  12. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,488
    Yeah. Civ Fanatics is the best place to talk about VP. I was hoping the subreddit would be a place we could ****post about our games, but it's mostly been a bug-reporting / questions forum for people who don't want to make Civ Fanatics account. :lol:
     
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,494
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    r/civ mods refused/ignored my request to sidebar the subreddit for me. My guess? Fanboyism for the hilariously trivial NQ Mod. No offense to NQ users, but there are zero major fixes in that DLL.

    G
     
  14. Iamblichos

    Iamblichos Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Messages:
    360
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I think it's meant to be just a Multipalyer mod , no?
     
  15. notque

    notque Artificially Intelligent

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2005
    Messages:
    1,654
    That isn't true, I worked on NQMod as well (you'll see me in the thanks). No need to insult other projects.

    But the /r/civ mods should definitely sidebar the subreddit. Will see if I know any of them.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,494
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    I've surveyed the NQ Mod and, aside from your work, there's really not much to it at all (for the record, I don't consider your work to be an original aspect of the NQ mod, as you made your work available elsewhere. Mea culpa if I'm mistaken).

    G
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,494
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    That may be, but the number of mentions of the CP/Vox Populi followed by some variation on "NQ Mod or GFTO" is pretty darn high. 'First to the party' syndrome, it seems.

    G
     
  18. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    It's Reddit, what can you really expect?
     
  19. Dunkah

    Dunkah Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,189
    Location:
    Just north of Boston
    Just for the record.
    Perhaps you should change the Name of the site from CPP to VP?

    Might get more views.
     
  20. Dennysaurus

    Dennysaurus Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    My sole point of preference from a purely player perspective is that NQMod makes the game better, while VP *also* makes the game more interesting. Hence, VP makes the game more fun :D
     

Share This Page