Idea: Pagodas are for Non-Owners of Religions

[Stalker0]

Just had this idea as I was thinking about religious spread. We are often concerned about the balance of religious owners vs non-owners. So I had this thought that would both help that, and encourage more religious mixing and spreading in the game.

Idea: Remove the pagoda as a religious building. Instead, its becomes an effect (maybe called "Religious Tolerance"). All civs that don't control a religion once all religions are claimed gain this effect in their cities. If they ever control a religion in the future, they lose this bonus.



What this does is create two distinctive styles of religious gameplay. If you own a religion, your playing the typical game. Spread your belief, enhance, yada yada.

But now you can play religion completely differently, don't bother with owning and go religious mixing. Court every religion you can for really nice bonuses.


So now, non owners get a way to bridge the gap that makes sense with flavor (the benefits of religious tolerance). Further, they are less likely to resist religious spreading, which gives religion owners a place to spread more and compete over religious dominance.

I think its a win win for everyone!

 

[XplosiveLun]

I really like the Pagoda so I'm not enitrely buying this. I think Pagoda now serves a neat position. However, I'm neutral on an alternative non-religious Padoga. Though that might upset the balance of religion-owner and non-religion owner. Padoga is something you strive for if the condition is right. It is a resurrection and huge opportunity of your civilization if you're surrounded by a bunch of religiously competitive civilizations. It is a decision and strategy to obtain Padoga.

 

[Cokolwiek]

I don't buy it either. Why should we reward not getting a religion? I don't see a reason. You loose religion race because of your choice. Because it is a gamble. Like with wonders or declaring war. If you neglect religion, you focus on other areas, so you have more of other yields, and can choose religion that benefit you most.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I like the idea of getting bonuses for diversity, and of non-founders having an incentive to acquire different religions. Currently it can be worth doing in order to build the buildings each religion has chosen, but otherwise the unhappiness from religious unrest and the diplo bonus for sharing a religion with a country favour choosing one and keeping it.

I think the Pagodas has a useful function in religion though, so I wouldn't like to see it removed. An alternative might be allowing people to keep their pantheons even after adopting another religion (and then have a pantheon that rewards you for having followers of multiple religions in the city).

 

[bigcat88]

Introduce a new faith building for civs that did not found. Like monastery. With effect similar to pagoda. Change current pagoda to make buildings differ.

 

[XplosiveLun]

Monastery is a reward for picking Fealty. Regard it as a policy building.

 

[Asterix Rage]

Interesting idea. It's worth digging in.
Let's keep Pagola for what it is and let's imagine a new religious building for religion free cities that get bonus with variety of followers.
Only if AI can handle it...

 

[Aenigmata]

I don't buy it either. Why should we reward not getting a religion? I don't see a reason. You loose religion race because of your choice. Because it is a gamble. Like with wonders or declaring war. If you neglect religion, you focus on other areas, so you have more of other yields, and can choose religion that benefit you most.

Particularly because it is a gamble. Some games you have to devote every action towards getting more faith. I remember way back playing on emperor+ I couldn't get a religion unless I picked a religious civ or if I went tradition and found a CS to make friends with and/or got a faith ruin that I probably sat on for 10-20 turns first. It feels pretty bad seeing your beliefs chosen by the AI. It feels really bad not getting a religion at all and personally, unless I focused on building up my military instead, I tend to restart those games.

 

[Cokolwiek]

I don't see a problem with founding. I can consistently found religion on deity nearly every time, even with the last patches. Before it was even easier, because Stonehenge was basically guaranteed to build if you belineed it, and it was a guaranteed first pantheon.
And I like this competition for beliefs and pantheons. It adds so much challenge and unpredictability to the game, and sometimes forces you to rethink you situation. It is very refreshing. You should be rewarded for prioritizing faith, as this sacrifices your other early yields like culture or food.

 

[Aenigmata]

No you're right, it's much easier to get a religion then it use to be. This would primarily be used for the AI.

 

[XplosiveLun]

Particularly because it is a gamble. Some games you have to devote every action towards getting more faith. I remember way back playing on emperor+ I couldn't get a religion unless I picked a religious civ or if I went tradition and found a CS to make friends with and/or got a faith ruin that I probably sat on for 10-20 turns first. It feels pretty bad seeing your beliefs chosen by the AI. It feels really bad not getting a religion at all and personally, unless I focused on building up my military instead, I tend to restart those games.

On Emperor you're almost guaranteed a religion if you can spawn a prophet before turn 100. It depends a lot on starting position, opponents, and various things. But after all, getting a religion is a race like rushing wonder. I know it sucks to lose but that's the point. You don't get anything if you lose the race (well kinda, you still benefit from becoming a follower). Another thing is that you're not left with nothing without a religion. The faith points still have purpose even if you don't have a religion.

 

[Stalker0]

Just to note, this isn't about creating a massive power boost for non-owners. Yes it will close the gap, but I fully expect that owning a religion will still be stronger.

This is about giving players another interactive path to work with religion instead of having to race for it every game.

 

[XplosiveLun]

I think becoming a religion follower is still a buff, not like you're getting nothing. Its just less tailored to your own strategy. The religion race here isn't to force everyone to get a religion. You can always opt out of it based on whatever reasons. And you can become follower of other religions, enjoying the benefits.

 

[Cokolwiek]

This would primarily be used for the AI.

That's a really good point. I haven't really thought about that before. If it's not aimed at buffing players that skip religion (and shaking traditional race for religion upside down), but basically difficulty-adjustement to get better performing AI, I am all for it.

I think becoming a religion follower is still a buff, not like you're getting nothing. Its just less tailored to your own strategy. The religion race here isn't to force everyone to get a religion. You can always opt out of it based on whatever reasons. And you can become follower of other religions, enjoying the benefits.

Exactly. You still have buildings, faith purchases of science/cultural buildings from reformations, and yields from things like scholarhips, which are the most powerful things about religion.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I'm not sure I understand where other people are coming from, but for me founding a religion is very much not a given. As noted above, it's a competition like building wonders. Obviously if founding is something you focus on and practise a lot you will figure out the best ways of doing it and eventually it becomes relatively routine.

When I play though I try to play on difficulties and settings that that I feel challenge me, which means that I'm not just assuming I am going to win or get the things that I want (found the religion I want, build the wonders I want etc.).
So this talk of non-founding being primarily for the AI confuses me. I'm not a new player, so I have to assume I'm not the only person who finds religion still seems relatively competitive (particularly in games with civs like India, the Celts, the Maya, Ethiopia etc).

What I can say is that in games where I'm not able to found I tend to restart and try again. Not because it's impossible but because the game just seems less fun/interesting without that dimension to it. Having things that help non-founders compete with founders would make me more likely to try playing games where I don't found more often, which I think is a good thing.

 

[Bromar1]

What if religious unrest was inverted for non-founders? For example, if a city would have -2 happiness for religious unrest when controlled by a founder, it would instead get +2 happiness for religious harmony when controlled by a non-founder?

 

[Stalker0]

What if religious unrest was inverted for non-founders? For example, if a city would have -2 happiness for religious unrest when controlled by a founder, it would instead get +2 happiness for religious harmony when controlled by a non-founder?

very interesting

 

[Zanteogo]

Playing mid level difficulties I will miss out on claiming a religion about 25% of the time. It's pretty much random because it depends on what other civs you are up against and how hard they push for a religion.

Now that we can steal the founder status by taking a religious capital.. it's pretty much a non-issue. If I play an early war civ, I don't often focus on it.

Now as for the OP idea.. it's interesting, but why? Why reward players for not pushing faith early on?

You get a diplomatic bonus by being a non-founder as it is. You don't get other civs mad because you are spreading yours and whomever gets majority in your cities you get a large diplomatic bonus with.

 

[Melchizedek]

I agree with Cokolwiek that the game shouldn't reward not seeking a religion too much. Monasteries already serve this purpose, although you need to invest a policy to get them, which seems about right. I've had several games where I slightly missed founding, and being able to take the fealty opener plus follower benefits from nearby religions plus GP already give me plenty of ways to spend faith and still participate in the religious aspect of the game.

 

[DeAnno]

Free auto-pagodas is definitely a little much, but it wouldn't hurt if there was an extra way or two to spend Faith before Industrial, just to make missing Founding narrowly a little less sharp of an edge. Pagodas unlocked at Theology buildable only with Faith for example, but open to everyone. Maybe at a higher Faith price than the other faith buildings.