Idealogies (Religions)

[dmm1285]

I think the religions of Civ 4 could be adapted very nicely to Planetfall. Here is two possible implentations:

A) Each faction's initial characteristics are entirely decided by their idealogy. At any time, if a game situation made it advantageous, a faction could switch their ideology (in effect switching to a new faction) To prevent abuse of this, a time delay could be unsed.

Switching to the Gaian idealogy:

Turn 0 -5: faction has no traits

Turn 5 - 10: faction gains the Gaian +2 Effic

Turn 10 -20: faction gains the Gaian +1 Nutrient in fungus square and the -1 to Police

Turn 20: faction gains the Gaian +1 to Planet (and any other traits I'm forgetting)

The above was just an example. More turns might be required, switching idealogy should be a huge deal that happens a few times a game, max, not every 15 turns. If you were living in a peaceful part of Planet, the University faction could decide that switching to a Morgan ideaology might work for them. On the other hand, if they were to start next to Yang, a Spartan ideology might be better.

B) Every faction keeps their starting traits, but now one of their traits is "ideological" Looking at the Gaian example:

0-10 turns: no idealogical trait

10 turns+: +1 nutrient per fungus square

So, if the Gaians were to switch to the Peacekeeper ideology, they would lose their +1 Nutrient, but would gain +50% council votes, or something like that.


Another question would be is when would switching be available? I see three possiblities:

1) Available at the beginning of the game. I think this would be the best option. After all, the factions were all aware of each other before they landed. I don't think you should have to see Yang again to remember how a dictatorship works.

2) Ideologies become available as factions running the ideology are met. I don't like this for two reasons. First, a lot of times it can take a long time to meet others, and it makes communication much more valuable. Second, if SMACX idealogies were implemented (I'm thinking Probe especially), they might not be possible to switch to in each game.

3) Have switching tied to a technology. I don't like this at all.


New victory condition: Idealogical Victory. This is pretty self explanatory and could replace the diplomatic victory. However, it should be pretty hard to convice the other factions to switch.

Negatives of switching idealogies. Another effect switching could have would be to gain new aversions to social engineering. For example, if you switched to the Gaian ideology, you may no longer be able to run Free market, and would have a diplomatic penalty for anyone running Free Market and Planned, and maybe a larger penalty for anyone running Morgan's ideology.


I'm sure someone has had this idea somewhere else before, it's pretty obvious, but I would love to see it implemented at some point.

 

[GoodGame]

Overall an interesting use of religions.

Choice "A" is reasonable, but "B" would give more flexibility and shades of gray.


On the 'when' of changing ideaologies, I would vote to keep it fairly rare in the game, to avoid changes being done for diplo reasons as happens in vanilla civ.
I'd suggest the path for the idealogies be:
1. at game start you can choose to accept your background story ideology or not (if not, you don't found it, nor have it in your cities).
2. As you discover a tech that is linked to an ideology, you get a one-time option to adopt it, regardless if you are the first civ to that tech. If you are the first civ to the tech, you can refuse to found that ideology and therefore not pick it as yours; Founding an ideology should equal accepting it.


Generally eliminate missionaries, and have natural spread of ideologies be amped up if the city has switched to that ideology.
So to influence others to an ideology, you'd have to gift them the tech, then persuade them to switch to it.

And there would also be local bonuses/penalties for having 'other' ideologies in a city. E.g. a civ that nationalized the Gaian ideology, and has a stray industrialist ideology in one city might have that one city subject to worm attacks, or minor unhappiness. Having a gaian ideology in a city where the civ has nationalized Gaian, and have a thematically appropriate extra bonus.

I think the religions of Civ 4 could be adapted very nicely to Planetfall. Here is two possible implentations:

B) Every faction keeps their starting traits, but now one of their traits is "ideological" Looking at the Gaian example:

0-10 turns: no idealogical trait

10 turns+: +1 nutrient per fungus square


Another question would be is when would switching be available? I see three possiblities:

2) Ideologies become available as factions running the ideology are met. I don't like this for two reasons. First, a lot of times it can take a long time to meet others, and it makes communication much more valuable. Second, if SMACX idealogies were implemented (I'm thinking Probe especially), they might not be possible to switch to in each game.

3) Have switching tied to a technology. I don't like this at all.

 

[levolun]

One of the things I liked about SMAC was that I thought I was playing a theocracy.. The ideals of the leader played out as different effects on the society as a whole.. New technologies could effect and change the society, but the leader was the core of the faction. So, IMHO, there really shouldn't be religions in the game.

However, the SMACX factions might translate into corporations.. Especially since in each of their backstories, their 'ideals' were created after Planetfall..

 

[eddieb]

A My suggestion is that only the Lords believers get religion, and the only Morgan get corporations. Then give the others some advantages to balance it out. There are other ways of getting culture and money.

Or each faction gets a corporation OR a religion

B)
Religion only : Hive, Planet, Lords

Corporation Only: Morgan, Spartan, University

Neither: Maybe gets some UN bonus Peacekeeping

 

[The_Reckoning]

I like these ideas.

I'd like to see each faction start off with its own special technology [which can be coded to give them any faction bonuses cIV doesn't like otherwise], that can't be researched, which founds their ideology.

Then they spread only their own values. So they're called "Planet Cult" or "Hive Mind", "Christianity", "Morganism"(?) instead of Islam, etc.

Then the temples and whatnot are basically boosts to the faction's bonuses. I like this since it would mean, for example, you get a mixing of factions who want to work closely together, e.g. Hive works with Uni, gets Uni ideology spreading, gets to build:

Planet Institute [temple]
Planet College [monastery]
Planet Academy [cathedral etc.]

which all give increasing bonuses based around the Uni's faction bonuses.

and the University of Planet could be the "holy building" you get from the great "prophet" [change all prophet to visionary/harbinger?].

All sorts of these are mentioned in the fluff and quotes, and we can separate them from the Rec Commons, so you'd have U.N. Library, Hive Feeding Bay, Spartan Arena, Gaian Conservatory, Covenant Church, Data Angel Safe Haven... Pirate Tavern, Morgan Boutique/Mall/Shopping Complex

It would be fun coming up with all these names, 3 for each faction, and then building a little bit of another faction into your own, getting a bit of their bonuses and helping to specialise your cities.

Also each faction's founding prophet building could give something instead of gold, like the Free Drones gain for knowing they're helping to free the world, the University getting +Research, Morgan +energy etc.

It'd make more sense that way, with factions wanting to spread their own ideologies. And it'd mean it's more even, so a faction's city wouldn't have a rival ideology before its own, all starting with their own.

So it doesn't get crazy, have each base limited to building only one type of ideology building tree per city. It'd be a fun way of specialising them.

There's something I wrote about a year ago on the Apolyton forums.

 

[Duneflower]

Time for me to weigh in, I think.

I'm of the opinion that you could use the religion model - including a suitably-reimaged Religion civic-column! - almost straight. What you do is, rather than (or perhaps in addition to) having the "religion" generate culture, you take one of the traits that its most-representative faction possesses - especially if more than one faction possesses it! - and have that trait be gained from the "religion" rather than intrinsic to the faction. As an example:

Deirdre is the first to discover Centauri Empathy, thus founding the Green ideology. Henceforth, any base in any faction whose population has at least some adherents to the Green ideology gains a local +1 Planet rating, provided that the faction as a whole isn't operating on another competing ideology. Adopting the Green ideology on a factional level grants a global +1 Planet rating, but only those bases with Green populations get the local bonus, because those that don't are lacklustre about implementing the standard eco-friendly systems.

Under this model, the Gaians wouldn't start with their trademark +1 Planet, and the Cult would only start at +1 - they'd have to adopt the Green ideology to get the other +1.

Let me get some sleep and I can probably conjure up a full list of seven ideologies and their attendant mods.

 

[Maniac]

Instead of using the state religion mechanics and each faction starting with their own religion, I was thinking the religion mechanic could perhaps be used for political movements (some of which are religious, but not all). They could for instance be:

Empath Guild/Voice of Planet
Merchant Guild
The Lord's Conclave
Homo Superior
Cybernetic Consciousness
...?

The Lord's Conclave would be the only "religion" which already exists at the start of the game - for the Believers of course. The others would be founded by being the first to discover a tech or building a building (Merchant Exchange would found the Merchant Guild), with the usual boni for the founder for spreading it.

Each political movement would give its own special bonus to the base they're in. Voice of Planet +Planet, Merchant Guild +1 trade route, Conclave +happy, Homo Superior +XP, Consciousness +research.

Secondly, there would be a building which gives an extra bonus if the right political movement is present. +1 happy for Bioenhancement Center when Homo Superior is present, +1 happy for Temple of Planet if Voice of Planet is present...

Thirdly, each political movement could give +1 happiness if a certain civic is run. Wealth and Merchant Guild, Homo Superior and Power, Voice of Planet and Hybrid, Consciousness and Knowledge, Conclave and Fundamentalism.

Fourthly, there could be some random events which force you to favour one or another political movement, and piss off another. Eg a dispute between the Merchant Guild and the Empath Guild, or between the Conclave and the Consciousness. So having lots of political movements present would have its advantages, but also cause disadvantages due to opposing views.

 

[Duneflower]

Actually, that sounds more like corporation mechanics than religion - build a building, start the group. Why not do both? I've almost got my religion thing worked out (renamed Doctrines instead of Ideologies, as the factions are inherently ideological), and it's gotten me thinking on both tech-tree design and civic/SE balance alongside it...

 

[The_Reckoning]

Above

Great idea, I like it.

So long as there's a fairly expensive-to-use [many golds] but 100% success rate "Inquisitor" type unit.

Fundamentalism could prevent the spread like Theology.

Would it be possible to have angry faces as a result of being at war with the founder, or founding colony holder?

 

[The Beard]

I know I'm resurrecting something a couple of weeks old, but here we go anyway:

As far as religions go, I like the idea of each faction simply starting with their own religion. I don't think that they should be able to switch ideologies, except in special circumstances where the faction is completely dominated by another. Vassalage, for instance, could result in the state religion in the vassal state adopting the state religion of the superior faction. In cases of capitulation, this should definitely happen, with the added necessity that all cities with different religions are purged of their own religion and have only the possibility to adopt the conquering faction's ideals.

If you spread your ideology across Planet with Missionaries (renamed of course to suit the theme), then that gives you a +probe bonus in any of the cities that you convert (especially a bonus to Mind Control. Cities with your ideology will gain unhappiness if warring against you, and will revolt less once you conquer them.

With that in mind, there may not be much need for other bonuses with religions besides the usual +culture, productivity stuff and whatnot. Of course, Free Religion does not make any sense under this model, and I think is counterproductive to the charm of Alpha Centauri.

Corporations, in my view, should operate pretty much the same as they did in Civ IV. After all, there is just as much of a need for minerals and energy bonus as there was in Civ IV--if not moreso, due to the fact that we are all living on a hostile planet which wants to kill us. It's not just the Morganites who would need corporations--after all, the Gaians usually end up with a paradigm economy due to their efficiency bonuses, and the Free Drones (assuming we implement any SMACX factions--which I think we should do at least eventually) could certainly use more industry.

 

[Duneflower]

Ehehehe, whoops...I never did post the idea I said I was going to, did I? Ahkay, here goes...

I actually split them into two distinct categories, Diplomatic and Ecological; the idea being that if you concentrate on one category, you don't really have a stance on the other - you sorta do a little of everything in it, depending on the situation. I figure they'll be arranged in a way similar to :civ4: religions, though perhaps more spread out. The Doctrines and attendant mods are:

Arcology (Ecological): No from terrain (though maybe a multiplier to from facilities?), access to extra defencive Facility, PLANET score only affects Psi capability, limited terraforming choices, terraformers work 25% more slowly
Ascendancy (Diplomatic): -25% to build military units, +1 SUPPORT, 3 garrison units required to avoid
Commensality (Ecological): +1 PLANET, terraformers work 25% more quickly except when removing Fungus, Forests and Fungus spread/combine more quickly inside factional boundaries, may not build advanced improvements like Boreholes and Condensers
Co-operation (Diplomatic): +1 per city, +25% Council votes, +25% war-weariness, -1 SUPPORT (or -2 if war-weariness is built into SUPPORT)
Self-sufficiency (Diplomatic): +1 in any tile that already produces 2, +25% and from Facilities, no foreign s, -10% Council votes
Terraformation (Ecological): Terraformers work 50% more quickly (double when removing Fungus), terraformers never cost to support, -2 PLANET, no Hybrid Forests
Transcendancy: Free Transcendant specialist in each base, +1 PLANET, -1 SUPPORT (maybe -2)

I'm also thinking of having small boni for Doctrines being present in bases, especially if we don't have a Temple equivalent (with RecCommons being instead faction-specific); I'll post those later as I'm in a bit of a hurry.

 

[The Beard]

Duneflower--are you talking about having those take place of the religions, or are you implementing those as civics or what?

 

[Duneflower]

This is the "What do we do with Religions?" thread, Beard. ;D They're intended to replace Religions.

 

[The Beard]

Well, I know what thread we are on, but I was just confused as you were implementing the religions almost like corporations or religious civics in this case, where just spreading the religion to a city gives you another bonus.

Also, the recent stuff in the thread has been talking about corporations too, so I was just checking

 

[Duneflower]

Hrm...the more I think about it, the less I like the idea of doctrines present in bases granting boni; I'm leaning more toward creating a new Temple-class facility available either at some low-to-mid tech (probably of the Build persuasion) or at each doctrine-founding tech. Must be time to work on my tech-chart again!

 

[deadliver]

Rise from your grave...

anyone know if the ideologies are going to clash more than having favored or hated civics? Have not been able to play a game long enough to figure this out yet.

 

[soggy_amphibian]

I don't really know what's possible in terms of benefits that religions can convey, but here's some ideas, feel free to use/adapt/ignore etc. I'm associating these somewhat with factions, but hopefully these won't need to be hard and fast stuck to each faction.

Conclave or The Lord's Conclave, as suggested above (great idea for the name!)
The religion we associate with the Believers. Variant of Christianity, closer to the Crusading, "God is taking his time judging and smiting you so we'll do it ourselves" extreme than the rainbow-guitar-strapped happy clappy "Jesus loves you" variety. I can picture Miriam calling her missionaries Heralds. Bonus for adopting: building Conclave-specific religious structures could be cheaper, maybe all the units could be given a "Believer" promotion with attack bonus and psi bonus, but turn into a penalty if you change state religion.

Cult of Planet
This New Age-y hippie religion would most likely be associated with Cha Dawn's faction, of course, but it would be Lady Deirdre's cup of fungus-enhanced tea also. Planetmind would be the god of this cult, and the path of Transcendence and the path of just-surviving-the-flowering would be compatible with this religion's ideas. Different flavours, I guess. Bonus: obvious emphasis on Planet, perhaps tie happiness or culture in with Planet rating. Or have a "becoming one with Nature" vein, and have a bonus associated with having Bio Labs and using Mindworms etc as military.

Mammonism
This identifies most with the Morganites. Materialism, and in particular the pursuit of wealth, ranks so highly with them that it becomes a religion. I can imagine Morgan declaring that "These are my values, let us call a spade a spade". Bonus: extra happy for levels of funds in the faction's coffers, or for "building" Wealth, the building for when there are no more buildings? Or a bonus for materialistic buildings like the Hologram Theatre, or something.

Asceticism or The Ascetic Virtues
Sounds Spartan to me. The denial of self to better oneself, so, inverting Mammonism somewhat, "pleasurable" facilities such as Hologram Theatre would incur a penalty, but with such denial comes efficiency, so easier to build the facilities and units that suit them better. Also some bonus to make it harder for drones to riot.

Homo Superior
Loosely related to Hinduism and Transcendentalism, Planetary colonists want to transcend being mere Homo Sapiens, and look to becoming Homo Superior as the answer to all of life's problems etc. Despite this lofty ideal, there doesn't seem to be a lot in the way of genetic enhancements in Alpha Centauri's technology, though the Transcendence victory would obviously appeal, they'd want to keep their inner humanity, but modify it some. So bonus would be cheaper Bioenhancement Centre, and possibly human-based [or driven] units.

Cybernetic Consciousness
They believe in Silicon Heaven. Otherwise, where would all the calculators go? Looking for God in the machine, bonuses would be for robot-based solutions, cyborgs for instance. Perhaps there could be an "AI" promotion which would make them robot-controlled, bonus defence against Psi or something.


Obviously all of these can be expanded upon, and better can be done with bonuses and balancing them. And, also obviously, there's six religions here and not 7.
Regarding the concept of religions, from a religious perspective, there are religions with a definite concept of a god or gods. The Civ4 religions come under this heading. Then there are those who don't believe in a god (agnostic - "without knowledge"), and those who definitely believe there is no god (atheist - "without god"). From a religious perspective, atheistic philosophies like Communism and secular humanism are equally religious, not in the sense that they claim to provide a route to heaven or some such, but because they take a stance on the nonexistence of God, they leave the confines of the political arena and enter the religious. Politics and religions do coexist, there are members of various religions in many political parties, but when a political movement says "there is no God" it impinges on people of faith who would otherwise be involved in it, because that is a loaded religious viewpoint. The values and morals that would have been defined by gods or prophets or whatever become shaped differently, and something else takes the importance of a god. Mammonism is probably the clearest example of this, where wealth becomes the crux, the nexus. So in looking for concepts for Alpha Centauri religions, I've tried to find what they've tried to fill the god-slot with, although really that's not easy to put into words when you have an idea, and then it's not necessarily clear how it would work out in practice. The using cyborgs and AI for military could work equally well for Mammonism cos they'd want to stay home with their stuff and their money, for example.
I also wanted to cut a route between Civ4 where the religions all act the same because they didn't want to offend anybody, and the Gods Of Old mod in Beyond The Sword where all the gods are real and do stuff, I want the beliefs, the mindset, of the religious followers to affect how they act, which would then give the flavour of the religion to the practicing faction. Ideally each of the religious flavours could mesh with each of the political flavours to make a different cultural soup in each game, but I suspect because of the Believers it would be impossible to make such a blend perfect, but hopefully something workable could be achieved.
I hope at the very least I've sparked someone's imagination, anyway.

 

[soggy_amphibian]

...And then I read the new information on the main thread. I look forward to seeing the same religion being interpreted differently by different factions. Sounds like fun