Ideas for Archeron

[White Elk]

In the bug thread Sarisin brought up a point regarding the Dragon Archeron and the anti-climax of subduing a beast who becomes nothing more than a great statue. DemonMaster had an idea about it which gave me an idea. So I decided to start this thread instead of OT'ing the Bug Thread....

BTW, what a great disappointment it was subduing Acheron. It was like I captured a wooden Cigar Store Indian. No promotions, no mobility, no way that I could see of gaining XP (no one would attack him sitting right next to my city) and I couldn't even bestow Loyalty on him (I was able to do it with the Mega Monkey, Gurid). It really didn't make sense that as a barb unit Acheron inspired Fear, but when he joined my troops, he no longer did so. Again, I think the XP/promotions should be retained.

Acheron was such loser, I just deleted him after a few turns. And, here, I thought I had subdued one of the game's awesome beasts!

Can agree upon the Acheron thing, thats a downer. I wonder if it is possible to have a switch if someone subdues him. I mean if anyone subdues Acheron, then a script deletes the current Acheron (subdued immobile Acheron) and adds in the same spot a new Acheron (mobile Acheron). Have the new him loose all experience or whatever (if that is easier to do), I think this would still be better than how it is now.

I agree, but at least the Teams been able to harness that beast now and keep him and his horde from vanishing. I got a hearty laugh when reading this in the change log.... "The AI will build Acheron now (most troublesome monster ever)." I like your idea DemonMaster but if its not possible to code then I've another possible idea... Since Archeron is immobile now, and will be placed in the tile from which the attack came from, perhaps he should be uncapturable. And instead the conqueror of his city could gain a dragon egg which grows into a dragon whelp after x amount of turns and then matures into a full grown Dragon after a succesful round(s) of combat.. sorta like a werewolfs progression? This does take away the thrill, strategy, and luck of capturing him but I did think it odd that he was capturable in the first place. But I love the idea of controlling a Dragon for non-Kuriotates civs and I think raising a dragon egg in Archerons city would be fun.

A testament to my love of Dragons.
The shelf above my PC. On the white side of the chess board lives the Wizards and the Bald Eagles.
Yet to be added is the flying Dragons, and a Santa Claus flying a silver plane.

 

[Ekolite]

Love that idea! Yeah I've always thought it as strange that my inquisitor could go off and convert Archeron, a creation of Bhaal, to the faith. You could make the egg into equiptment so it can be stolen etc.

 

[Fenboy]

On a side note, it is a pity you can't capture rival religious units with Inquisitors. Personally I just want to see Mardero & Sphener switch sides & fight each other...

 

[White Elk]

I captured Gilden Silveric with the Domination spell once. Then I switched to FOL to try and capture Kithra Kyriel.
I can't remember if the spell failed or I just couldn't get him since he was a religious unit.

 

[it-ogo]

I think it is still easier just to make Acheron mobile. As it was before switching to BTS. At least when making scenarios I had no problems making immobile AI units with non-zero movement.

I think real solution of the problem is adjusting AI unit scripts and as it is scheduled for later (remember, Acheron is caster), Kael now did the simpliest and easiest thing to prevent game breaking by walking Acheron for now.

BTW there is a trick: before capturing Acheron attack him with several weak units in the same turn (you need courage of cause) so he will gain enough XP to promote him to mobility next turn. I did check, it works.

 

[it-ogo]

You can capture religious units if they are living (so no demons or angels). But if your religion is wrong they will abandon you next turn.

 

[Keilden]

So why is Link attacking that poor dragon?

 

[TheJopa]

Maybe spell for Acheron that gives him 2 permanent movement points and is castable only when NOT controlled by Barbarians?

 

[White Elk]

BTW there is a trick: before capturing Acheron attack him with several weak units in the same turn (you need courage of cause) so he will gain enough XP to promote him to mobility next turn. I did check, it works.

Cool. Nice trick

So why is Link attacking that poor dragon?

Hehe. Most all of my figurines were gifts from my mother over the years (she likes gifting people nics-nacs like that). Link was the first one she gave me. When The Legend of Zelda first came out I'd play it in the living room and mom would draw the dungeon maps. She didn't like to play the game but she enjoyed making the maps and being involved in the game that way. So that Link has a special place in my heart because of that. But Link needed an opponent so a few years ago I bought that Dragon for him to battle.

 

[MaxAstro]

Personally, from looking at the code, I don't think it would be too hard to give Acheron a move of 3 and a promotion that reduces his move by 3. Then have that promotion enable a spell that removes the promotion, but is not castable by the AI (Awaken Acheron, or something like that). Should do exactly what is wanted.

 

[White Elk]

If Acheron loses his promotions upon capture, then the promotion which reduces his move to 0 will be gone. The AI won't be able to move him because of the promotion; but the Human will be able to if the promotion really does disappear after capture.

But I wonder what happens if the AI casts Haste in Acherons city?
Will he then be able to move? And will he then get stuck outside the city?
And what if the AI grants him the Mobility promotion?

EDIT: Nevermind Kael has confirmed that Acheron does not lose his promotions...

I agree about the Acheron movement thing, but he has been nailed down for good reason.

I tested the subdue beast promotion. It seems to always work correctly for me (I always get the beast with all of his promotions). Its actually the same code as asubdue animals so Im not sure why you would have seen a difference.

 

[Keilden]

Tell your Link that when a dragon has a big open mouth you should throw a bomb in it. Not hit it

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think it would be cooler if Acheron was programmed to follow his horde around. So long as it is still in his city then he would stay there, but if someone steals it he try to get it back. Of course, what to do when he captures it again, and what to do if someone cheats and puts a second horde in the game could be problems.

 

[smurven]

I don't think worrying about "what if someone cheats" is much of an issue. They have enough bugs on their hands to worry about if people don't cheat, it would be insane to figure out all the things you'd have to do if you were going to worry about people cheating too.

 

[Saien]

Archeon absolutely positively does not lose his promotions on capture. It's just that mostly, he doesn't have any. The AI won't attack him, because it's mostly a guaranteed loss so unless you feed him critters he won't have any xp when you capture.

Last time I captured him I sent 30 skeletons his way first, all on the same turn. Captured with 30 xp, which he didn't have time to spend, but also kept his dragon promotion, etc.

 

[Sarisin]

I'm wondering if anyone else here has subdued Acheron? I used a Grigori Adventurer/Beastmaster with plenty of promotions and add-ons.

When I attacked the city, I was surprised to find not only Acheron there, but Orthus as well. Of course, there was at least a dozen other barb units too..mostly Longbowmen, Champions, and Wolf Riders. So subduing Acheron was a real trick as the wrong defenders kept popping up against my Beastmaster. Finally, I got the battle I wanted. The Combat Odds were only 89% because Acheron had a lot of promotions, and, somehow, had taken Orthus' Axe away from him. An Adventurer/Dragon Slayer had 99.9% odds against Acheron, but he got matched up against Orthus or a Longbowman, I forget which.

Anyway, what prompted me to enter my post in the Bugs thread was that when I defeated/subdued Acheron, I got him with ZERO promotions, ZERO XP and only the Meteor summoning ability.

Kael responded by saying that in his testing the Subdue Beast was working and the Beasts were keeping their promotions. I did not keep them with Acheron or Gurid earlier.

So, in this Acheron thread, I was just wondering if anyone had recently subdued him (not used an Inquisitor or Domination spell) and if they found him with the promotions.

My subdued Acheron was nailed to the tile next to the city I captured (with his Hoard) and, because I found him to be of no use, deleted him.

I kinda knew what I was getting when I tried to subdue Acheron, but decided to try anyway. I thought he would be immobile, but I also thought he would carry over his promotions like Animals I had captured. That just didn't happen in my game.

 

[Sarisin]

Archeon absolutely positively does not lose his promotions on capture. It's just that mostly, he doesn't have any. The AI won't attack him, because it's mostly a guaranteed loss so unless you feed him critters he won't have any xp when you capture.

Last time I captured him I sent 30 skeletons his way first, all on the same turn. Captured with 30 xp, which he didn't have time to spend, but also kept his dragon promotion, etc.

Damn, I wish I would have kept the save game for the turn before and after I subdued Acheron.

EDIT: Actually, I found that I kept the save game files, but they are with patch 'h' and will not load now that I have installed patch 'i.'

He clearly had a lot of promotions or the odds for my Beastmaster would have been 99.9%. I'm also thinking as a Hero unit, he automatically accumulates XP up to 100. Finally, as the city he was in was just over my Northern border I often saw AI units there. Maybe they were just there to have a look and move on, I don't know. Or, maybe the Fear thwarted their attacks.

You know, now that I am thinking about all this, maybe it was all of ORTHUS' promotions I was seeing instead of Acheron. Now, I can't be sure because the list of units in the city was blocked out a bit.

However, I am absolutely certain Acheron had FEAR when I attacked (my Beastmaster and all my units had Courage), however he did not have that when I subdued him.

Saien, what did you capture Acheron with? Was it the Subdue Animal promotion or Dominate/Command?

Maybe there is a difference???

 

[xienwolf]

Acheron can CAUSE fear, but he does not START with fear.

The Promotion Dragon allows him to summon a single meteor (fire breathing), induce fear, and cast Roar.

According to the XML, Acheron starts with: Dragon, Magic Immune, Sentry 1 & 2 and Stoneskin. Stoneskin would be lost after the first battle, but the others should remain. Important to note however is that he does not get Hero, so will not gain XP on his own.

Also, for future capture enjoyment, get the Trojan horse so you can move him into a city. Then use an Obsidian Gate to move him to a city under attack so that you can use him as a defender and gain XP to get Mobility 1 & 2 promotions.

 

[Sarisin]

Acheron can CAUSE fear, but he does not START with fear.

The Promotion Dragon allows him to summon a single meteor (fire breathing), induce fear, and cast Roar.

According to the XML, Acheron starts with: Dragon, Magic Immune, Sentry 1 & 2 and Stoneskin. Stoneskin would be lost after the first battle, but the others should remain. Important to note however is that he does not get Hero, so will not gain XP on his own.

Also, for future capture enjoyment, get the Trojan horse so you can move him into a city. Then use an Obsidian Gate to move him to a city under attack so that you can use him as a defender and gain XP to get Mobility 1 & 2 promotions.

I'm sorry, xienwolf, but maybe I don't understand your first statement.

I tried to attack the stack with a Cannon and the message was it could not attack because of Acheron. So, he must have had Fear somehow. He clearly caused my Cannon (all my other troops had Courage) to not attack. So, again, how exactly did this happen? You're saying that the Dragon promotion scared away my Cannon, but that Pink promotion Fear was not there?

When I subdued Acheron, he could summon a Meteor, as you said. I did not see anything there for Roar, though. Also, he definitely did not have Stoneskin, Magic Immune or either of the Sentry promotions. So, those WERE lost when I subdued him. Again, I'm sorry if I messed up and mistook Orthus' promotions for Acheron, but I still think he must have had some because the Combat Odds were lower (89%) than I thought they would be against my Beastmaster with many promotions and extras (Great Commander attached, Poison damage, the Death damage thingy, etc.).

I loved reading your "Capturing Acheron" tips. Actually, I did have the Trojan Horse, but never thought of loading him in it and carting him around the map - a hilarious thought! Also, I later built the Nexus, so I could have moved him around my cities. Never thought of either of those, but with no wars, it would have been a useless task anyway.

Oh, one other thing. If Acheron doesn't get those automatic XP up to 100, can he still get Hero Strength/Defense? If not, then it WAS Orthus as the unit had all 4 I believe.

I'm tempted to figure out some way to go back to 'h' just to check all this out...

Thanks for your clarifications.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Acheron does not start with the Fear promotion; however, the Dragon promotion has the same effect (plus more)

Dragon allows breath fire (which summons 1 meteor) and Roar. Roar only works if their is a unit nearby with the Cult of the Dragon promotion, as its purpose is to convert these units (or kill them if they have loyalty)

Acheron should also start with stoneskin, magic immune, sentry 1, and sentry 2. Of course, Stoneskin disappears after taking a certain number of hits (it could have disappeared in the middle of your battle to capture him). He should still have had sentry1,2 and magic immune though.

Acheron does not start with Hero, so he gets no free xp or the heroic strength/defense promotions.