If I could change only 1 thing in CIV4...
- Thread starter Garbarsardar.jr
- Start date
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
Dell19 said:
Not for the players. But I fear, it will be the argument *against* for the issuing company.
We've had two full price expansion now for Civ3. Quite some additional money has been made by these.
If they would release an editor with which the community of players could do almost everything, there would be no space left for the company to make that additional money with Civ4 expansion as well.
From an economic point of view they are just forced to keep the aces on their hand, not on ours.
Ah, so cynical, Cmdr. Bello...
Its a valid point, although I'll offer two counterarguments:
(1) No matter how extensive an editor is, an expansion pack can always offer new features that weren't possible before. For example, even if vanilla Civ 3 had an editor that let you add in as much custom terrain as you wanted, there would have been no way to add in volcanoes until Conquests came along, because volcanoes behave differently, and there was new coding necessary for that. Granted, there aren't terribly many exampless of such things, but the point remains: expansion packs can change the fundamental rules of the game, while mods can only alter parameters or add new elements within the existing rules (no matter how good the editor is).
(2) I feel you're overestimating the quality of most modders work. I've looked through the graphics created and posted at this website, and while some of it is as good as what the professionals include with the game, much of it is not, and I would say I haven't seen anything significantly better. This is not a slam on those who make such units/splash screens/improvements/whatever: I realise that its a lot of work, and most of what's been done is quite impressive for amatuers. But I, for one, would still be willing to pay for a collection of professionally done units/etc., especially if they had statistics and abilities that had been playtested. Sure, a few talented fans could produce some professional-quality artwork to compete with an expansion, and some enjoyable mods would get made as well, but I think "within days" is an big exaggeration: thouroughly playtesting a mod to make sure everything you've added or changed works with the rest to make a balanced whole is not a trivial task. I've found that the mods I'm most interested in are the ones that offer only small tweaks to the default game, since I know the default game is pretty well balanced, but you never know what you get with somebody's mod. Its like a lot of things in life: you get what you pay for.
Its a valid point, although I'll offer two counterarguments:
(1) No matter how extensive an editor is, an expansion pack can always offer new features that weren't possible before. For example, even if vanilla Civ 3 had an editor that let you add in as much custom terrain as you wanted, there would have been no way to add in volcanoes until Conquests came along, because volcanoes behave differently, and there was new coding necessary for that. Granted, there aren't terribly many exampless of such things, but the point remains: expansion packs can change the fundamental rules of the game, while mods can only alter parameters or add new elements within the existing rules (no matter how good the editor is).
(2) I feel you're overestimating the quality of most modders work. I've looked through the graphics created and posted at this website, and while some of it is as good as what the professionals include with the game, much of it is not, and I would say I haven't seen anything significantly better. This is not a slam on those who make such units/splash screens/improvements/whatever: I realise that its a lot of work, and most of what's been done is quite impressive for amatuers. But I, for one, would still be willing to pay for a collection of professionally done units/etc., especially if they had statistics and abilities that had been playtested. Sure, a few talented fans could produce some professional-quality artwork to compete with an expansion, and some enjoyable mods would get made as well, but I think "within days" is an big exaggeration: thouroughly playtesting a mod to make sure everything you've added or changed works with the rest to make a balanced whole is not a trivial task. I've found that the mods I'm most interested in are the ones that offer only small tweaks to the default game, since I know the default game is pretty well balanced, but you never know what you get with somebody's mod. Its like a lot of things in life: you get what you pay for.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
You've made two valid points.
1) If the engine is changed for an expansion, you will get features unavailable before.
2) The graphics provided from fans range from "ok" to "wow, great!".
Nevertheless, we have to keep in mind that the current mods are automatically limited to a certain degree since the current editor is quite limited. Allow me just to make one example: the economic system cannot be improved very much, since you cannot change very much in the editor. All you can do is to make things more or less expansive and to allow for more or less income. Basically, the later is limited to allow for more gold production from tiles worked upon and multiplying it by the effect of improvements. You are not allowed to have something which subtracts gold from your treasury other than by direct costs. You are not allowed to have improvements which would add income directly, either. For instance, the sugar plantation as in the AoD conquest. You have the treasure, but the AI is not able to make good use of it. And since there is just one treasure, all you can do is to play around with the turns between one and the other treasure to be released.
There could be so nice ideas be realized... if it were possible.
And I am pretty sure that there are many ideas in the minds of current modders, which just can't be realized but which would greatly benefit the game.
Now, to make a long story short, if all those things could be realized, they would be realized. That in turn would make an expansion much more complicated, since an expansion has to offer something *really* new or better.
So, indeed it is a decision based on economics whether to make such an *perfect* editor available. We should not forget that the releasing company is not doing all this kind of stuff just to be nice to the community, but because they want to earn some good money.
That is, why I don't expect a very good editor to be released with Civ4. I would be the first to cheer them, if they would prove me wrong as soon as it is released, believe me.
1) If the engine is changed for an expansion, you will get features unavailable before.
2) The graphics provided from fans range from "ok" to "wow, great!".
Nevertheless, we have to keep in mind that the current mods are automatically limited to a certain degree since the current editor is quite limited. Allow me just to make one example: the economic system cannot be improved very much, since you cannot change very much in the editor. All you can do is to make things more or less expansive and to allow for more or less income. Basically, the later is limited to allow for more gold production from tiles worked upon and multiplying it by the effect of improvements. You are not allowed to have something which subtracts gold from your treasury other than by direct costs. You are not allowed to have improvements which would add income directly, either. For instance, the sugar plantation as in the AoD conquest. You have the treasure, but the AI is not able to make good use of it. And since there is just one treasure, all you can do is to play around with the turns between one and the other treasure to be released.
There could be so nice ideas be realized... if it were possible.
And I am pretty sure that there are many ideas in the minds of current modders, which just can't be realized but which would greatly benefit the game.
Now, to make a long story short, if all those things could be realized, they would be realized. That in turn would make an expansion much more complicated, since an expansion has to offer something *really* new or better.
So, indeed it is a decision based on economics whether to make such an *perfect* editor available. We should not forget that the releasing company is not doing all this kind of stuff just to be nice to the community, but because they want to earn some good money.
That is, why I don't expect a very good editor to be released with Civ4. I would be the first to cheer them, if they would prove me wrong as soon as it is released, believe me.
Garbarsardar.jr
subtitled
If you take a look at the poll you will notice that very few people went for editor improvement as their first choice.That leads me to two(non-mutually exclusive assumptions)
a.the modding sub-community does not bother with voting.they're busy modding
b. mea culpa
I should have multiple choice as an option(and maybe I will soon)
a.the modding sub-community does not bother with voting.they're busy modding
b. mea culpa
I should have multiple choice as an option(and maybe I will soon)
socralynnek
Civ & Hattrick addict
My one change isn't an option: Have a new ressorce system
For me, I'd like to see quantified ressources and goods...
For me, I'd like to see quantified ressources and goods...
Garbarsardar.jr
subtitled
This poll was meant to be a pilot and has been expanded and modifyed here; http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90193
The answers were extremely usefull in the creation of a better poll
thank you all
Please vote again in the new(and final...fingers crossed) poll
The answers were extremely usefull in the creation of a better poll
thank you all
Please vote again in the new(and final...fingers crossed) poll
warpstorm
Yumbo? Yumbo!
Good editors do very little to hinder the sales of expansions. Has a good editor hindered the Age of... sales or the *craft expansions sales.
In fact, the biggest thing to hinder the sales of an expansion is poor quality of the original game. In general, expansions sell about 25% of the original game's sales. The hard core fans typically buy all the expansions regardless of content (oops, that was supposed to be a marketing secret).
I'm all for a better editor.
In fact, the biggest thing to hinder the sales of an expansion is poor quality of the original game. In general, expansions sell about 25% of the original game's sales. The hard core fans typically buy all the expansions regardless of content (oops, that was supposed to be a marketing secret).
I'm all for a better editor.
Garbarsardar.jr
subtitled
I suggest we move all further conversation here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90193
Dravazed
Chieftain
What I would change was not in the poll. My main beef with the Civ games is that they unrealistically model all history as a Leviathan: the war of all against all. Frankly, every era of human history is not the story of one culture's being resented, hated, and plotted against by all others, however marginally less advanced or privileged they may be. In this important respect, I feel the Civ games are unrealistic. It just ain't that way.
Garbarsardar.jr
subtitled
you can vote for it here : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90193
dojoboy
Tsalagi
You've got to throw "Everything AI" out. Its a given. Chose new government controls,but would've also like to have an opportunity to vote for civil war/culture groups/schisms as well.
Okay, finally read the above posts and moved to the new poll.
Okay, finally read the above posts and moved to the new poll.
Quite a good summary of the key areas for improvement, I'd like to suggest one more however and that's diplomacy in general and the espionage system in particular.
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