If you chase two rabbi, you'll lose them both.

[FeelGood]

@Ramius75: Keep up the good work.

I could be good if we just don`t bother about this. There are more interesting things in the world than blaming Israel. Never worthwhile!

In a kingdom of blind, a one-eye man is the king - works on both factions.

 

[Ramius75]

Ramius, Ramius, this strawman shows me you deliberately twist my statements....
what I said was:
the state aims to harm combatants, not civilians.

Obviously the point is not wether civilans die, but the intent to kill them, or the intent to NOT kill them.

Sorry, but someone with such bad debate manners as you doesn't deserve an answer. Either you reply reasonably, without constantly building obvious strawmen, you you let it be. This is a discussion forum, not a competition in strawmen creation.


What I really cannot get is your constantly ignoring the fact that hamas is a terror organization and intentionally kills innocents. You just try to distract from that fact by your cheap rethorics.

Yes, but its naive to think that no civilian will be harm too. U guys have to remember that Hamas is NOW an elected administrator of the country, Its not possible to just basically harm the Hamas without getting to the people. Its almost exactly like said Ur going to kill all NeoCon or Republican without waging war on the whole nation.

Frankly speaking, i thikn ur the one that is not getting the point, or all this year of Supremacy thinking let u have such arrogant thoughts.

Like what i mention above, all coins have 2 sides. It really depends on where u standing to make the statement.

Yes, Realistically and practically, the HAMAS is a "terrorist" organization, on the western POV. The world is round thou, and there are many ppl on the other side of Earth that think otherwise. Many western countries cause more death and support more tyranny than the "eastern" countries.

What u advocate is precisely what the Israelis are doing all prior to Sharon's coma. A tic for a tac, or even escalate to an all out war to remove Hamas. But do u think its possible ?? Are u any smarter than the cabinets in Israel now ? Wouldnt they think of this b4 ? Whats the long term solution ? Or do u have an solution at all ? After destroying Hamas with mimimum casualties, Whats next ?? Ask them to have ANOTHER election ?? Who will they vote for ? What if they choose Al quada instead ?? And the cycle repeats itself.

The world isnt any narrower than ur view, and its not Black or white. Decision are not easily made. It will be nice if one can has his own way and principle. Or even stick to a particular religion doctrine. But it isnt. The whole is fluid, events change all the time. Hell, even the Catholics allow condoms now.

 

[carlosMM]

Yes, but its naive to think that no civilian will be harm too.

Ramius, again, and ofr the last time:
the effective outcome is not what I am debating - it is the intent.

YOU refuse to distinguish between Israel and a terror organization based on their intent, which to me makes you a terror apologist.

U guys have to remember that Hamas is NOW an elected administrator of the country,

Indeed! Which means that their declaring terrorism to be a right of their people means they have officially declared war on Israel - after all this is state sponsored terrorism, and that is considered war.

Its not possible to just basically harm the Hamas without getting to the people.

Yup, so what?

What you are suggesting is ACCEPTING the Hamas position - letting them bomb freely, just ebcause they were elected.

As for the rest of your post: I note the insults, but I fail to see you condem terror anywhere. Go blow yourself up, if ou want, for the good of the Palestinians, but please do it without harming anyone else.

 

[MobBoss]

By electing Hamas the Palestinians have shown that they have chosen the hard-line. So that is exactly what Israel should not do. If you act the way your enemy wants you to act, you have already lost - Sun Tzu.

Yes, but what you fail to mention is that if Sun Tzu had been in charge of Israel he would have had all the Palestinians lined up and killed long ago.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

IMO, what the Palestinians want Israel to do is pretend that terrorists can form a peaceful government that deserves respect. That way they can continue their terror (now known as "war" since they are a "state") against Israel. So choosing the hard-line back at them would be just what the palestinians don't want.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Yes, but what you fail to mention is that if Sun Tzu had been in charge of Israel he would have had all the Palestinians lined up and killed long ago.

Stop your threadjacking and your speculations. !!

 

[Ramius75]

Ramius, again, and ofr the last time:
the effective outcome is not what I am debating - it is the intent.

YOU refuse to distinguish between Israel and a terror organization based on their intent, which to me makes you a terror apologist.

Indeed! Which means that their declaring terrorism to be a right of their people means they have officially declared war on Israel - after all this is state sponsored terrorism, and that is considered war.
Yup, so what?

What you are suggesting is ACCEPTING the Hamas position - letting them bomb freely, just ebcause they were elected.

As for the rest of your post: I note the insults, but I fail to see you condem terror anywhere. Go blow yourself up, if ou want, for the good of the Palestinians, but please do it without harming anyone else.

I have to keep repeating also, there are 2 sides to every story.

Likewise of what i think of Ariel Sharon when he was elected the prime minister, the "the Butcher of Beirut". Thinking that it will be the end of the peace process. But in his later life, i thinking otherwise.

So what does that made me? An Israel apologist too?

Of coz, i do condemn all act that target civilian purposely.But whats the alternative ? Fanning more attacks ? Protest for retaliation ?? Is this what u see in Israel now?? I prefer a more wait and see attitude now. Yes, those that was killed in the suicide attacks are very unfortunate. and It maybe anyone also, there isnt any promise that it wont happened in the future. Terroism is something that is very hard to stop. Most of them are invisible, no leader, no organization until they decided to reveal themselves, only that will make them easier to deal with.

Im very angry over the bali bombing, i assure u. To me, those terroists are bastard and dont deserve any defence from me.

But this approach cannot work with Hamas now, there was a chance to eradicate them actually. No, its not military mean, but by willing to talk with the other peaceful leader of Palestinian and give them the power to lead and change the ppl. But seeing that talks does not work, the Palestinian eventually elected Hamas to the stage (even after ariel start to evacuate the settlers). Which is unfortunate again. And this required another set of thinking.

 

[Israelite9191]

Military action is not an option. Diplomacy is not an option since Hamas a) refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist b) is a terrorist organization that will undoubtably not hold up its end of the bargain in that it won't eliminate terrorism or even fight it and c) they simply refuse to talk to Israel. The only option is unilateral withdrawl as designed by Ariel Sharon with diplomatic action taken as soon as a reasonable government regains control in the Palestinian Territories.

 

[carlosMM]

I have to keep repeating also, there are 2 sides to every story.

You don't have to - you just this as a ruse so you do not have to admit that hamas are a terrorist organization. And that so far no attempt to talk to them has worked. Which leaves us with the logic conclusion that new talks will only mean that they bomb with impunity.

THAT's the issue, and oyu try to sugarcoat their murder.

All the rest of your yadda yadda is nice, but totally irrelevant as long as you compare the intent to stop terrorism with the intent to conduct terrorism.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

In other words...

carlosMM: Hamas are terrorists.
Ramius75: Israel did bad stuff too.
carlosMM: Stop trying to to excuse Hamas for being terrorists.
Ramius75: Stop looking at only one side of the issue.
carlosMM: You refuse to admit that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Ramius75: You have to talk peacefully to Hamas.

... is that a reasonable summary of the above?

 

[carlosMM]

In other words...

carlosMM: Hamas are terrorists.
Ramius75: Israel did bad stuff too.
carlosMM: Stop trying to to excuse Hamas for being terrorists.
Ramius75: Stop looking at only one side of the issue.
carlosMM: You refuse to admit that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Ramius75: You have to talk peacefully to Hamas.

... is that a reasonable summary of the above?

well, you missed the point things hinge on:

carlosMM: Hamas WANTS to kill innocents
Ramius75: but israel kills innocents too, by accident!
carlosMM: I am talking about INTENT
Ramius75: I do not give a flying piece of feces about intent, I want to give israel a bad rap and Hamas to bomb on!

I guess that's more like it!

 

[Sidhe]

You want to recognize Palestine as a nation and Hamas as its government?
Then Israel is justified in utterly destroying Palestine! Problem solved! Thank you!

I've heard more politically adept solutions from a 7 year old? How old are you? Even in jest that's not funny.

By the way the Israelis have also used suicide bombers which killed plenty of innocents, in fact they were doing it before the Palestinians. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

The only real choice is diplomacy even if you did what Erik suggested you would simply give birth to a never ending succession of suicide bombers, it is very hard to destroy a people utterly, but the middle East would never stand for genocide and war would follow between those if not allied but sympathetic to Palestine.

Of course I've said it a dozen times though, peace will not come between Hamas and Israel, just at it wouldn't between Sharon and Palestine, to me Sharon was simply an Israeli form of Hamas.

 

[Ramius75]

well, you missed the point things hinge on:

carlosMM: Hamas WANTS to kill innocents
Ramius75: but israel kills innocents too, by accident!
carlosMM: I am talking about INTENT
Ramius75: I do not give a flying piece of feces about intent, I want to give israel a bad rap and Hamas to bomb on!

I guess that's more like it!

Actually, Erik is more correct. I have been thinking/reading/studying about this Israel/Palestinian issue for a very long time, since the time of Rabin and Arafat. i have seen peace accord been signed, broken, signed, broken, terrioist attack, isreal attack, so on and so forth. Its a never ending cycle. And i always think to myseld, how was that possible, how they are going to have peace. Both of them are sharing the border now, and most probably will be neighbours forever, unless 1 side destroy another.

Giving the land and population they have, which side do u think will benefits from getting peace ??

I know it will never be easy. But violent was tried many times in the past, it never suceed. Its useless trying to repeat the cycle again. when will it ever end?

 

[HawkeyeGS]

Hmmm Diplomacy Vs. senseless violence. Which to choose?