Ignored civilization...

[ogrejedi]

I'm open to varying responses on this topic, but I seem to have noticed that through three Civilization games (not even including CTP and CTP2) and an expansion for Civ3, a certain civilization has been mostly ignored. This civilization was in power longer than the Mongols, has certainly had a deeper impact, and even has a couple Wonders to contribute. I'm speaking of the Jews ("Jew" rather than "Israelite", as no Jewish people today are descended from the Israelites, and the word "Jew" comes from the southern country, Judea). It would seem as if it would be even more important to put this civilization in as it is once again a power today. Judea (part of modern-day Israel) was once a very important civilization, and held its own against invaders for hundreds of years. It was defeated in the end due mostly to miscalculations in tactics and inner squabbles.

It could easily be Commercial and Religious, and led probably by King Solomon. Two Wonders of the World that could be attributed to them would be Solomon's Temple and The Torah (possibly at Code of Laws). Their UU could be anything from the "Prophet" found in the Completed Files Forum to modern-day Israeli planes.

It seems odd that this civilization has never been given its place in any of the Civ games. I guess for now, I'll have to just add it in myself as I have been doing.

 

[KaNick]

I think the main thing that has kept the jews put is that they never really became a country that had a lot of terretory.

 

[andrewgprv]

Um I don't think so they weren't a nation for that long before they were broken up and conquered. And when they were a nation they did not have a very large or influential Nation. Really the only thing influential about them is their religous aspect. (Home of much of the Old and New Testament.)

 

[ogrejedi]

The Jews were a nation for quite a long time... some accounts estimate their departure from Egypt at around 1300 B.C. They were conquered by Babylonia in about 586 B.C., but returned under the Persians, and retained some form of autonomous rule until about 70 A.D. During the time of David, their territory extended from the borders of Egypt to the Euphrades river, and Israel was one of the strongest powers in the Middle East during the reigns of David and Solomon. It seems as if this civilization is at least more important than the Zulu.

 

[Silverflame]

It might spread too many controversies about having a religion as a civs. It might be like making Germany represented by Hitler, not Bismark

 

[Evie]

"Some kind of autonomy" - as a Persian protectorate, then a greek territory, then a short while independant, then as a roman protectorate...

Yes, they had some kind of autonomy, but not limited enough to make them qualify as a separate civ at that time. Jerusalem is in the game - as a roman city. And this is as it should be. The Hebrew territory's golden age was under roman dominion, (at the era of king solomon, archeology tell us Israel was no more than a relatively small forted up town and some territory around it), pretty much around the reign of King Herod.

 

[WillJ]

Originally posted by Silverflame
It might spread too many controversies about having a religion as a civs. It might be like making Germany represented by Hitler, not Bismark

No, not really. I think the real problem would be agreeing on the most suitable name (which I guess is sort of what you're saying). This "group" used to be the Hebrews, and when they were enslaved they became known as the Jews, (and now of course Jews are people who follow Judaism), and the Jews eventually founded Israel, which broke up into Israel and Judah, and both were conquered, and in the 1940's the state of Israel was again created. So we could call them the Hebrews, the Israelites, or the Jews. None of these have been the people's name throughout their entire history, and the Jews are really members of a religion, not a civilization. Israel is the only one that has ever been an actual civilization/place, and I think that should be the name, although it would represent all of the Jews'/Hebrews' history.

 

[ogrejedi]

It was a civilization far longer than the Americans have been, and an even greater amount longer than the reign of Genghis Khan (the only time when the Mongols were important to history). It also began as a civilization which used a monotheistic religion to control the masses, and is now once again a nation.

As far as names, the Israelites covered all 12 tribes, and thus Israelites might be the best name. This may cause confusion as it was at one point two kingdoms, Israel and Judah, but still, either "Israelites" or "Jews" would suffice. As a side note, they were not the "Jews" as slaves, but the "Hebrews". Perhaps "Semites" could be a civilization, but that was too broad a category, and the only surviving Semite civilization with a sense of its identity is the Jews.

 

[Seraph]

Were the isrealites ever the dominant group of their area? Most of the cives in CIVIII are groups that dominated for some point in history. Did the isrealites ever do this? Most of my recolection of their history is that they always seemed to be a step behind in technolgy, and were (and still are) strugling to not be wiped out by their neighbors.

 

[cracker]

I would personally rather see the Borg, the Klingons, the Ferengi, and the Romulons included in the game long before we have another one of the crying fits about the jews, the gypsies, or the whatevers not being included.

There are ump tee ump bizillion minor/moderate religious, cultural, and racial groups in the history of this planet as well as the other 37 humanoid inhabited planets in our Galaxy. Are we so narrow minded and planar in thought we cannot see that these "civs" in the game are merely graphics wrappers that provide a skin to cover a set of mathematical positions that just make this an interesting game to play.

It wouldn't matter if the next expansion pack included all the gangs from the movie "Warriors" it would still add some interiesting dimension to the game if these gangs had different attributes and different special unit abilities.

Any other whining about excluded civs or "my ancestors are unfairly excluded" or "this guy/gal is the wrong shade of brown or pink just reflects a reduced ability to apply your imagination into the game to let you enjoy the limited functions that have been designed into the game.

Play on. When you have won a game as each of the 16+8 existing civs on each of the 5 map sizes, on at least 4 different landmass settings, from all six of the major terrain type positions, and by each of the 6 major victory conditions then we can say "OK, I have run out of people to kill or be killed by, bring on the Jews."

(note: in the previous post you could substitute any tribe, group, team, or club for Jews and the message would still be the same. Learn to play the game.)

 

[joespaniel]

Some very enterprising young men created a mod to include the Polish civilization in the game.

Do the same ogrejedi.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I think Oda has it down: the Jews where around for a long time, but most of it kicked around by other civs........

 

[cymru_man]

Originally posted by ogrejedi
It was a civilization far longer than the Americans have been,

Don't want to drift off topic, but I've never understood quite why the Americans are included as a starting civ. I know its quite seperate from Europe now, but Washington D.C. was only founded in what, the 1600s?, and New York (1st New Amsterdam) was founded by the Dutch. America was a kind of mismatch of colonies. I don't know when America received independance, but they haven't been around for more than what, few hundred years, whereas most of the other nations were actually around for much longer than that.

 

[joespaniel]

Originally posted by cymru_man
Don't want to drift off topic, but...

Too late.

I've never understood quite why the Americans are included as a starting civ.

Because us Americans will spend mucho-$$$ buying the game, and it wouldnt be nice to leave us out as a civ.

I know its quite seperate from Europe now, but Washington D.C. was only founded in what, the 1600s?

DC was founded in the early 1800's, in a desolate swamp.

 

[cymru_man]

You can tell my history's good.

 

[Azale]

The Americans are in the game because they are the srongest civilization in the world right now. Get the pattern.

1.Babylonians

2.Persians

3.Greece

4.Rome

5.Mongols

6.Spain

7.France/Britain

8.Germany(for a short period)

9.America

That doesn't fill all the spots, but it explains why certain civs are in. But in the end though, cracker is right.

 

[cymru_man]

OK maybe, but it seems silly to be fighting the Americans in 1000 BC. Oh well, it is a game after all.

 

[erez87]

jews was a religion only after the middle ages, and the days of the revolution of france... befor it was called hebrews...
jews are ppl from jueda, and israelis are frim kngdom of isreal, but befor it splite they were a big power, and when greec controloed them, they were the only country to break up from them befor rome came. against rome they had to revolutions, one that didn't sucsed at all, and one that let the hebrews control the area for little time...
every nation that ocopay the area, got troubles, big troubles from the hebrews\jews\israelis...
so they should be countr,
and think about it, in the game there is catardel, a cristian thing, but, from were crisianry came from? and islam? and a lot of others...

 

[Melanic Sheep]

Originally posted by cymru_man
OK maybe, but it seems silly to be fighting the Americans in 1000 BC. Oh well, it is a game after all.

As silly as the Zulu conquoring the Chinese? Have you ever made it to the modern age with the Babylonians? It's not supposed to be 100% historically accurate.

 

[Silverflame]

Of course not. This is supposed to be a game where you have the power to change history. Otherwise everyone will just play America since it is big and Russia is all tundra, and every other one is either in a terrible starting position (japan, europe), no longer exist (zulu), or just do not have any power (china).

Anyway, we should get back on topic.