[BTS] IMM & Deity lets play collection thread - Henrik

@Henrik75

That Mansa Musa map was really something. And the excitement in your voice when you had those good charms on your side in your first wave of attacks... priceless. ^_^ That map is a keeper.

Agreed, that was very impressive to watch. You have brought back my interest in civ 4 bts again!

Edit: Actually on the note of playing civ 4 again, could you reupload the washington tutorial game? I'd like to play along!
 
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Thank you I appreciate it :)

Think I just had an even more insane game, lib went at 50BC....

AbsoluteZero and Lain aren't posting much Civ4 content, if at all, any more these days, so I have become a regular subscriber of your YouTube content. Been a big fan for a while now.

50 B.C. Liberalism is just too crazy. I don't like the tech brokering aspect of the game too much, so a lot of times, I turn that off just to slow down the tech pace to a more reasonable one, albeit one can argue that such setting makes the game a lot easier.

Agreed, that was very impressive to watch. You have brought back my interest in civ 4 bts again!

Edit: Actually on the note of playing civ 4 again, could you reupload the washington tutorial game? I'd like to play along!

I second this as well. ^_^
 
I just rolled this map yesterday, and although I only played 82 turns, I think this may be a bit more challenging even with Tech Brokering off and an extra AI. I'd really want to see how you would tackle this.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/ramses-immortal-fractal-bad-lands.677522/

Had a read of that, looks pretty interesting for a day I can't be bothered grinding deity, will definitely give it a play soon since requested.

Edit: Actually on the note of playing civ 4 again, could you reupload the washington tutorial game? I'd like to play along!

Do you mean the save file? or re-post the video?
 
Teaser of an upcoming game, monster stack at 800AD...
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Sorry, Henrik, but I played through a little of that map, and its way easier than I thought, anyways, if you want a super easy map (for deity) to relax it might be fun for you.
Edit: it is still on deity though. I forgot to mention that originally
 
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I started the Suleiman map and enjoy it!
Spoiler :


Met Ragnar T4, and saw a nice forward city so I rushed the first settler, corn was placed awkwardly so I started improving one ivory, then when AH was in I went for the sheep. The total hammers synced up nicely for the IMP bonus.
Worker then roaded saving more turns.

Have watched abit of your video @Henrik75, and it looks like in your game, Ragnar settled that spot T22!!
Loaded up this city with archers and waited for a DoW, but that never came...
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Went math before I started to save up cash and wait for academy.
Capital got it's granary very late, I built barracks and archers and library and loads of other things first...
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After academy was in, I went for monarchy->Feud to spam longbows, had time for that but also got up to construction and HBR and have started to build catapults and a few elephants.
THEN Ragnar decides to DoW... Sorry Rags, your window of opportunity has probably closed now...
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Moved all archers to the forested hill with the intent of having Ragnar suicide against the longbows in the city, but he found the archers more appealing instead.
Ragnars land kind of stinks... But I have already commited with feud etc to eliminating him and taking the island myself.
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Have just watched the replay of the stream that I missed. Some feedback:
Spoiler :

The first map of your stream is terrible. Yes, you've made some questionable choices, but other choices don't sound good neither. The capital only has 1 tile of 6 yields. The surrounding land is barren, neighbours dangerous. If there were some Dyes, Bananas or Spices under the jungle, then REX would make some sense. But there is no resource in the jungle area up north. Spamming cities in the resourceless jungle will just slow you down. I'm not saying the first map is impossible to win, but I do think the first map is not a decent map for streaming, as during the stream you play with constant interruptions / distractions, you interact with the viewers. The first map is more likely to be a bad Immortal map that you play off-line and upload videos.

Actually I don't have better insights than others :lol:. I notice many things because my games go much worse than others' games. For example, when everything goes well, you just steamroll and conquer the whole maps with Cuirs or Knights & trebs. In the opposite situation, when everything goes horribly wrong in your games, you pay more attention to details "why my cities are so angry""why this AI refuses to capitulate even he has only 1 city left""why I lost all my stack". For example I know the happiness from Ivory and Fur will disappear after Industrialism and Plastics, because in most of my off-line Monarch Toku games, after throwing my Rifles + Cannons onto AIs Inf. + Arty, my tech situation is so desperate that the only hope of catching up is to beeline Computer and build Internet :o. Plastics is required for Computer, after Industrialism my cities have :mad:- because Ivory is gone. My Ivory trades with AI's resources are automatically cancelled as well. Same for Fur after Plastics. Many human players pay attention to the details more often in a horrible game (AP defy anger, war weariness, fall behind in techs, stack wiped out by AIs, getting dogpiled...) than in a good game.

In the first half of your stream, you brought up a very good point: probably I should play less frequently as Tokugawa in my off-line games :lol:. You know, a leader with no economical trait makes the game tougher. On Deity with a good leader (Lizzy) your Cuirs smashed AIs' Medieval stacks; on Immortal with Toku, a game became samurai against Infantries.

Many people have been more or less wonder-spamming noobs or building-spamming noobs. I certainly was. At Warlord level I used to play as Louis, choose a Marble start, build every wonder which can be built with :hammers: (namely all the wonders except shrines and corporations), and win culture. SMethods is required for Physics - Electricity and Broadway. That's how I know the :culture: bonus of monasteries from Sistine will disappear after SMethods :o. A good player who stomps the whole map with Cuirs won't notice that. Only wonder-spamming noobs pay attention to monasteries' :culture: and Sistine :blush:. (As result, I often got DoW at Warlord level because I was under 100% :culture: and my neighbours Shaka or JC had -4 penalty from border tensions with me :o )

A good player like you makes many wise decisions without even realizing it :). In your Giggle isolation game (IMM 52, part 3), at 10:59, after Sury's DoW, the AP only passed a trade embargo against you, not a holy war against you. Why? because your beg from Mehmed saved you from being the holy war target, though you seems to be unaware of it. The holy war resolution is activated when every AP member can declare war on the target. If you have a peace treaty with an AP member, "declare war on the infidels" is inactive. So, your peace treaty with Mehmed disabled Sury's ability to launch a holy war against you. ( <--How did I know that? eh... I didn't keep the screenshots that I got destroyed by 4 AIs' joint armies :o)


For your information, there is a combat odds calculator tool, Vodka, generously shared by @ civac to the forum: https://civ.zulan.net/vodka/
It's a very useful tool and covers the majority of combat situation in BTS (UUs, promotions, in city or not, hill or forest, across the river or not...). For example, you may use Vodka to calculate the odds of your Woodsman II warrior in the forest defending against a barb archer. :high5:

Satan's voice :satan:: Drink a bottle of Vodka before your every combat in BTS! :devil: <-- :jesus: : Don't get drunk. Just don't :nono:.
 
Oh hey Konata, you also like Tokugawa. Tokugawa is fun for the super-promoted units but your tech dates are horrible. Although once on emperor I got a gems start with Toku and got 300BC samurai, that was very nice. After playing Toku so much I remember trying WVO and being shocked by my tech dates, I tech so much faster without gems as WVO than I do with them as Toku.
 
The first map of your stream is terrible. Yes, you've made some questionable choices, but other choices don't sound good neither. The capital only has 1 tile of 6 yields. The surrounding land is barren, neighbours dangerous. If there were some Dyes, Bananas or Spices under the jungle, then REX would make some sense. But there is no resource in the jungle area up north. Spamming cities in the resourceless jungle will just slow you down. I'm not saying the first map is impossible to win, but I do think the first map is not a decent map for streaming, as during the stream you play with constant interruptions / distractions, you interact with the viewers. The first map is more likely to be a bad Immortal map that you play off-line and upload videos.
Even without a real :food:-resource, that's still a gold start. I think the play was just strategically very bad. There is a massive floodplain area directly to the south, so the most important thing must be to grab it asap and divide the fps between two cities. Going for Oracle is just absurd imo. Though I guess if stone was revealed some turns earlier that wouldn't have been the direction Henrik went, rather expand normally and get Mids later. But I think this was a good reminder for people how expansion is much more important than building wonders with a small number of cities. Grabbing the floodplains, building Mids the only issue is getting declared on by the southern neighbor.
 
@Hamilton321
Yes, Tokugawa has many things unique or special. His starting tech is an unique combo. His UU is the only maceman who can be built exclusively with Iron (other maces can be built with Copper or Iron). Samurai is the only melee unit who have access to Drill promotions. After building railroad, Toku can trade Coal to AIs while Shale Plants still provide electricity, without :yuck: from coal. There are many things that "only Tokugawa can do this!" "only Toku can play like this!" :lol:

Judging a leader is strong or weak usually requires some objective criteria, but personal preference is much more subjective. Admittedly I don't think Tokugawa is the best choice for a high score attempt or someone's first win on Deity, he's still among the weaker leaders. OTOH, when I play off-line, I play as Toku much more frequently than I play as Augustus or Peter. Yes, BTS gave Toku some weaknesses and flaws. But I prefer accepting all these weaknesses or flaws to idealizing them :D.

PS: Gilgamesh in Fate/Grand Order looks quite different from Gilgamesh in BTS :lol:

I think this was a good reminder for people how expansion is much more important than building wonders with a small number of cities.
True. Back in the old days when I was a wonder-spamming noob, I thought "only 3 cities are needed for :culture: victory, so expanding beyond 3 cities is just a waste":o. But that's wrong thinking. Having 8 or10 cities in 1AD is much better than building wonders with 3 cities.
 
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I was unsure about some decisions Henrik made in his latest game "Pacal Isolation part 3".
Spoiler :

1. Why did he give techs to ask Charlemagne to sign peace? Vassalge protective longbows and muskets are hard to attack into and Charlemagne builds a lot of them.

2. Why liberalism for constitution? He said he wanted to go cannons and rifles. Why not liberalism for chemistry and then research steel?
 
About Part 3
Spoiler :

My biggest fear in deity isolation is falling behind in tech. The game is going to go longer than cannons and rifles, that's for sure. Every war I wage is going to take a full era, because we have 11 city charle, 13 city hatty, sury+brennus duo, and saladin protective bastard with 13 cities also.
So I focus on building a very strong economy before starting the war. The wars are also overseas, meaning it takes a while to get there and reinforcements will also take a while. Cyrus/Hammy are so far behind they will not get rifling for a long time, allowing me to focus on building up my econ and then crushing them with rifles/cannons. We're pacal. We can tech like a beast with our financial trait. It makes no sense to whip everything down to the ground and let yourself fall behind just to attack a couple turns earlier. Libbing constitution is 3.3k beakers and adds many more bpt to my research. It's true I could go gunpowder and lib chemistry instead, but I would not be ready anyway, as I have to start pumping out units before I get there. (After the golden age we will switch into unit pump mode)

I'm confused about the first question. I'm not worried about charle dying to hammy, I'm worried about him crushing hammy before I can. Hammy is a stupid idiot with an overseas vassal, he has 4 cities and no units but decides to attack into 11 city charle anyway. Thus I bribe charle off of him so he doesn't vassal hammy. My plan is to attack hammy/cyrus first then charle later on, it doesn't matter if I give charle a couple techs, better than having him vassal both hammy and cyrus before I can grab the land.
 
Pacal deity 54 iso

I posted this as a Youtube comment, but I'm doing it again here to add some more details and for the forums to see.

Also, please appreciate the triple pun in the name of my save...Pacal - PaCOW, as there were 4 cows on the starting continent; and, Angus as in Angus beef, which is made from cows, and also is a nickname for one of my friends I dedicated this game to :).

Spoiler :

This was such an interesting map for many reasons - I myself won conquest t261 (1755AD) with tanks, nukes, and bombers. I settled my capital a bit later than you, spending a turn walking to the wheat. I think this made a massive difference because whether you settle on t0 or not changes the seed to completely alter the direction of the game - in my game, Brennus started a lovefest by founding Hinduism, which became a serious problem later on as all the 3 on the continent had the same favorite civic too. It also changes which directions AIs walk their settler, which is huge for obvious reasons. Reloading or restarting the game or even your laptop does not change the seed, but small things like pillaging a tile or choosing to whip or completing a wonder one turn early/late can have huge snowballing effects...even if you haven't met anyone yet.

That being said, in my game, Brennus had no metal…unless he settles his third city very quick in a specific location, Hatty takes up like 3 iron, leaving him weak to Surry if he ever decides to attack with swords or something. From looking at the replay at the end, that was what happened in your game too. I was able to exploit this by attacking him first, and despite being advanced in tech and having steel like me (I managed to lib it), he couldn’t build cannons (or knights or cuirs or any melee units)…near the end of the war he was whipping archers and horse archers vs rifles and cannons, lol. Surry also was confined to 4 cities, and Hatty…decided to go culture before rifling, so she was easy pickings. The game was definitely sealed after Hammy went fission and then radio without ever touching rifling or steel, at which point I became an unstoppable monster having taken 4 AIs.

There was a lot of variation between our early game strategy as well. I founded Mutal to take advantage of the wheat and grass cow, to maximize food, which was excellent for early and mid-game commerce but made it absolutely garbage for lategame production. I didn't even bother with Oxford, as it would've taken a million years to build (off-river means no levee, and I was too busy whipping/drafting to even care about universities).

Spoiler :

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However, for city#2, I founded Lakamha in this gigachad spot.

Spoiler :

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This city struggled with food all game but was absolutely loaded with production. I chose to go for an early Oracle, beacuse Pacal starting with mysticism gave him an edge in teching the priesthood path (just 2 cheap techs that combined are only slightly more expensive than literally bronze working itself), and also me needing monarchy meant I lose nothing because I needed meditation -> priesthood for that anyways. With a grass copper and plains cow, Lakamha handily pumped that out, and I even went on to later 7-turn Colossus there because I had nothing better to build! The water tiles benefit only lasted 10-15 turns, before astro, but it was wild to work 6 food 3 commerce ocean fish for a bit. Perhaps the more crucial factor, however, was denying these wonders to the AI. AIs that get Oracle tend to use it on metal casting and then immediately build Colossus afterwards, leading to them being absolute runaways. Saladin likely would've gotten both were it not for me, leading to him becoming even more of a monster than he was in both our games. The great person points were also key to helping generate a GS to bulb edu, and then later a final GA to start one final late-game golden age, along with another GM. Last but certainly not least, I kept a lot of the forests around the city, and was able to nab Heroic Epic with a helpful warrior who won some early combats to reach combat2/cover. I libbed steel and went for rifling immediately after. With said forests, I rapidly chopped out an army of cannons and rifles when the time came in rapid succession, allowing me to attack Brennus t181 (1210AD!) with rifles and cannons, when he had neither (he had steel, but...me DOWing cut off all his metal access).

Honestly, after this game, I'm never underestimating the production power of plains cow again - a city working 2 plains cows for production, produced the oracle, the colossus, and most of my military over the course of 2000 years. Imagine getting destroyed because of dozens of tanks made from COWS. Nuclear weapons? built from organic steak, of course! :crazyeye:

I settled the other cities to maximize food, in particular targeting the ocean fish that you orphaned for its long-term unitspamming potential. In particular, I whipped and drafted as much as possible as soon as steel/rifling came in, with nationhood. Draft rifles were crap, but speed was of the utmost essence, and even unpromoted rifles dealt well with horse archers and longbows (without metal, that was all Brennus had...).

After seeing your endgame summary, I opened debug mode for the stats. It seems we were roughly on tech parity for most of the game, but near 1090AD (aboooout when we both got lib, in my case libbing steel), you started to pull far ahead in beaker rate while I pulled ahead in certain techs acquired. That was because I traded extremely aggressively. The diplo situation was not very favorable to me, unlike your game. Charlie and Hammy married each other as fellow Buddhists instead of fighting, and there was the aforementioned Hindu lovefest on Brennus's continent. With so many friendly faces, anyone getting a tech meant the others were going to get it anyways, monopoly or not, which meant I was more than happy to give away expensive things since I had no choice; the other AIs would get it regardless. When Surry researched astro, I immediately pawned it off to Hatty and Brennus for guilds, engineering, and music (otherwise, he would've just sold it for gunpowder/chem or something, which is what Brennus went for). After Brennus and I both got steel, giving it to Surry for scientific method for an almost 1:1 trade was a no-brainer. In a stroke of luck, Hatty switched to free speech/religion just before I declared on Brennus (perhaps the only diplo break I got this game), instantly dropping her to annoyed and letting me bribe her on him with steel. My rationale was that I would rather face her cannons later and in exchange get some help against Brennus immediately, and perhaps most importantly, break up the lovefest - as soon after, Brennus bribed Surry on Hatty, and the polycule was violently shattered via my machinations.

The other thing to note was that, I reached optics 2 turns later than you BUT I bulbed astro quite a bit earlier. This was because I didn't spend a GS on an academy, which IMO is usually not worth it in iso games unless your capital is god-like and/or you are PHI. Missing out on trades and getting left in the dust is far, far more disastrous than optics a bit slower, and if you muddle your great person pool with things like wonders and forges then you run the risk of a catastrophic low-odds great prophet or something. Of course, this is mitigated with reloading, but great person generation is actually not affected by changing things like whipping, which means you cannot change the seed to turn your GP into a GS so easily. And, without reloading, your fate is truly left to the gods.

You can see the danger inherent in my save and the need for me to attack quickly by my debug demos at that date, which shows me about 150-200 bpt behind you in a golden age, and the other AIs 150-200bpt ahead of how they were in your game. Funny enough, I was still #1 in bpt rate, though not for long.

I guess the only unlucky thing that happened in your game was Saladin popping both gems AND silver at/near his capital...the odds of that, quite literally, approach as small as 1 in a million - especially considering as those were the mining happiness/commerce resources that he happened to not have and which there existed only 1-2 copies through the world. In my game he "only" had his quintuple gold, so he wasn't quite as insane as he was in your save.

Spoiler :

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In future deity iso games, you may not get as fortunate as you were here, and I think it's best to maximize the food/power tiles you settle to prepare for a long, tough, uphill game where every single pop point and hammer matters. That's why I made the choice to go out of my way to not orphan the plains cow, copper, and ocean fish tiles, despite them perhaps being awkward to acquire early game.

All in all, very interesting and fun, and thanks for the map!

Spoiler :

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@Fish Man
Spoiler :
keep in mind I played the map blind without looking around in WB or watching some gamer play on a YouTube video first so I just settled capital on a whim and it's unfortunate I ruined cows/copper spot. I still got a half decent city on the wine in the late game for tank spam.

I think I got luckier with Diplo situation, and I didn't leverage or expect them to all avoid rifling like the plague. The stupid war with Cyrus took too long. Slowed down by unfortunate events of hammy capping to Charle while I was in the midst of the war.

We have two diff approach, you can say mine is the more economical, safer, investment way. I built up my economy before the war and had fun at 900bpt, because how rare are you that far ahead on deity lol thought it would be good to maximize the advantage. then I attacked after because my ultimate weapon in civ lategame is the tanks era nowadays, while you went and smashed them all with cannons, a more standard textbook approach. Also hey using planes and airports was pretty cool for once I thought.

Anyway gg well played, I will read it again before I play isolation next time definitely appreciate the written explanation.


PaCow lmao
 
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