Immortal - Crazy rules :) Who else plays with them?

[Ondskan]

Hey guys.

Been playing some Civ 4 again these two months and I am kicking some ass in two Immortal games currently using some really weird settings. The first one I basically quit at the point where I was nuking everyone and now I'm in an other.

So here are the rules I am playing with:

Big and Small,
High Water ( I think)
Island Mixed in.
Random Personalities
All variations on leaders/civ perks.
Raging Barbarians
Aggressive AI
No Vassals (just feel that people get to OP to fast by vassaling everyone and that the vassal system is a bit broken).
A few extra Civs about the normal.
Random Events (i'd turn this baby up if I could)
Huts.
Second slower speed (Epic, right?)


Basically my strategy for the second game was to get a Great Wall up fast, not so much for the barbarians as for the espionage GP. I was hoping to play a near-only espionage game but I hit some really good land commerce wise and kept playing the game balancing espionage with science.

Got hit by 3 or 4 Disorder + Negative population events pretty early on after the GW but kept on playing anyway.

I did do some luck manipulation early on (well not quite, just reloading when my capital got killed by barbs once or twice) and then I did one more lil shameful thing when the Sumerians attacked me I reloaded and placed the city they took elsewhere.

Otherwise I didn't do any reloading back and forth, not for research nor battles.
How about you guys, how often do you reload in a game if something really bad happens?


I'll post some screenies if you're interested.
One of the most important things I do with these very random games is I try to keep the balance of power alive. I often pay Civs to go to peace with each other so that one doesn't grow to large.

Anyone tried this and made it on Deity without gaming the Ai to much?
What are you tips for any difficulty?
How do I take screen shots again?



Oh btw, fun fact. There's Scandinavia in my map totaly random. Mountain-chains, baltic sea, lake ladoga. All!

 

[Manco Capac]

Oh btw, fun fact. There's Scandinavia in my map totaly random. Mountain-chains, baltic sea, lake ladoga. All!

A real scandinavia map if you were interested. Just find the parent thread of this child post.
Rectification.

Big and Small,
High Water ( I think)
Island Mixed in.
Random Personalities
All variations on leaders/civ perks.
Raging Barbarians
Aggressive AI
No Vassals (just feel that people get to OP to fast by vassaling everyone and that the vassal system is a bit broken).
A few extra Civs about the normal.
Random Events (i'd turn this baby up if I could)
Huts.
Second slower speed (Epic, right?)

Big&Small is a common mapscript amongst the HoFers for high scores. Nothing that particular.
Random Personalities option is fake; it only swaps the leaders script to each others. With experience and minute observation of hints, you can easily deduce how is behind the mask. For instance, if the leader is not angered (no diplo hit) by your demands or rejections of theirs, then the true personality is Gandhi behind the mask of, say, Shaka.
Aggressive AI (aka AggAI) is a fluke. Originally, in Warlords and anterior versions, it was definitely a real minus; that was hidden -2 towards the human for each leader. That definitely leads to many early ANNOYED leaders plus being worst enemy of many, which in turn favors to be DoWed.
Now, it is simply (in fact, it's the same minus the biggest drawback, which is the double diplo hit) a bunch of effects that thwart the AI even more; it makes them even slower in teching and everyone should know the AI gets it full-blown power from running away (hint hint cheap upgrades). Even more, albeit being scarcely known, if you jeopardize their cities (if you're interested in more explanations, ask for it), the peace deal becomes 3 times more in your favor, leading to some abuses in easy peace treaties or easy tributes. AggAI=BS.
No vassals can make the game either easier or harder. Depends.
Few extra leaders caracteristic is highly abused in HoF for close capitals, thus easier warfare, smaller AI nations, more awesome cities (capitals are better than average lands because of the normalizer), etc. More leaders=easier times.
Random events are nothing special. Although S&Tip simply put a veto on this, in fact, I'm sure >60% of the player pool uses this.
Same assertion for huts.
Epic speed is the most appreciated speed over the whole population of players. Not too fast like normal (often the reason called immersion, slower obsolescence of units, etc.) nor too sluggish like marathon (not everyone likes games that span over two months).

I have seen more wacky kind of settings than this. One example would be a OCC game on oasis mapscript where you have to make a permanent alliance to win culture victory out of it. Since you need three legendary cities and OCC only allows one, you have to help out the AI with big crutches to lead him/her to cultural victory (2 of his/her cities should attain L status before another win some victory). And on difficulties lower than EMP, I can assure you it is hard to steer the AI towards victory. Lots of facepalms await you.

How about you guys, how often do you reload in a game if something really bad happens?

Almost never do that. And with my AI+game mechanics knowledge, it is for me even more shameful when I know how the game will react to my actions. Still, it is up to the player about this kind of morality. You know, you are playing for fun, not for competition. It is normal when seeking fun you attempt to erase bad turn of events. If you reload to try a new strategic path, it is highly commendable for the whole community. No one will blame you for that.

Anyone tried this and made it on Deity without gaming the Ai to much?
What are you tips for any difficulty?
How do I take screen shots again?

Deity often requires abusing the AI because they've got so much bonuses. Through mass tech brokering, warfare, diplomacy, etc.
There are no tips for the whole set of difficulties. Too large to gather like that. Case by case is a better approach.

Screenshots are taken by pushing the keyboard buttom PrtSc (PrintScreen). For some, the screenshots are working and gathered in some folder in your documents folder. For most, it doesn't work and you'll have to bypass through something like Paint.

 

[Tall German Joe]

I just realized what I did. woops!

 

[Manco Capac]

Oh Joe!

 

[soundjata]

What did Joe do?

 

[Tall German Joe]

oh, I just admitted my great civ shame. you see, on almost every game of civ I play, I reload my save at least one time. when? right after my second city is settled, of course. where else! I always get so excited when my first settler pops. and who doesn't? I get so excited that I forget to revolt into slavery during the turn he spends moving to his prospective settling spot, instead remembering the moment I hit end-turn. why? why do I do this? what is wrong with me? why do I so consistently forget to do this simple thing when I otherwise play quite carefully and honourably? why do I sometimes need to go through this routine three, four, sometimes even five times in a row, making the same mistake over and over again, my thumb hitting the space-bar without my consent the instant the movement animation has finished? why, when playing a spiritual leader, will I reload the autosave anyways, even though I know quite consciously that I already switched into slavery a dozen turns prior? am I really playing a game? is this hell? somebody please save me from myself!

 

[VSarius]

I've tried a couple of variants on Immortal, largely inspired by Madscientist's and Neal's variants, Realm's Beyond has also come up with some pretty interesting games.
Raging Barbs on the Earth Ice Age map was something special, as was doing the entire game without civics. I wouldn't really murk around much on Deity, maybe if I had something like a 70-80% winrate I would, but yeaaaah...

 

[Ondskan]

I've tried a couple of variants on Immortal, largely inspired by Madscientist's and Neal's variants, Realm's Beyond has also come up with some pretty interesting games.
Raging Barbs on the Earth Ice Age map was something special, as was doing the entire game without civics. I wouldn't really murk around much on Deity, maybe if I had something like a 70-80% winrate I would, but yeaaaah...

Oh cool. I should try that to!
I wish barbarians could develop a little bit faster or if you could play them ( I tried enabling them in the files but it just creates a civ with 1 barb unit or one without any perks). But playing on a ice age map sounds really cool
There is a really cool mod out there called Barbarians in which you play as some form of barbarian: You're in war against everyone and have a set amount of units you can buy. Pillaging ratio is highly increased and your city is a walking camp.


@Tachy
Since I don't fight to many wars the many countries make it harder to keep up.
I try to play the diplomatic game where I attempt to keep everyone on the same size for as long as possible and getting people to attack each other.

I can imagine knowing alot about the game almost makes it hard not to game it. That's why I try not to learn to much in that way. But like you said, at some point you notice who is who or at least in what direction the type of personality it is. Still it adds some fun flavor and you can get crazy stuff like Mints with industrial and financial leader against you Meaning you better take out that guy soon even though he is on the other side of the map.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If a game is deep, it should remain so even after you know all of its idiosyncracies. It shouldn't require remaining in ignorance to have fun; in fact hiding gameplay rules from the player in order to turn knowledge of mechanics into trial and error is the sign of a shoddy product that doesn't hold up if its mechanics are known. One of civ IV's greatest features is that you can see these mechanics. Compare that to most titles or even civ V and the others don't hold up well.

 

[Ondskan]

If a game is deep, it should remain so even after you know all of its idiosyncracies. It shouldn't require remaining in ignorance to have fun; in fact hiding gameplay rules from the player in order to turn knowledge of mechanics into trial and error is the sign of a shoddy product that doesn't hold up if its mechanics are known. One of civ IV's greatest features is that you can see these mechanics. Compare that to most titles or even civ V and the others don't hold up well.

Nah I disagree. I think that it's just a shoddy product as you call it with good gloss
But I find it fun anyway.

The game isn't very deep. That's why it has to have so many tables to keep the fun up and those tables are generally not meant to be read, that's why they aren't in the manual. Except for the difficulty ones.

The fun part is actually exploring the personalities and being forced to react to them. Not knowing their thresholds and gaming them.
But hey, fun is relative.

This can be compared to the two different forms of speedrunning.
Some people like me like to speedrun (not Civ ) without any tools or saves in one session.
Others like to use tools, macros, saved, stop - motion, etc to beat it at the most perfect time possible.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The game isn't very deep. That's why it has to have so many tables

Tables? The depth I was referring to is the amount of different and important decisions you have to make on a turn to turn basis, and the variance you can see between which decisions are best between games.

The fun part is actually exploring the personalities and being forced to react to them. Not knowing their thresholds and gaming them.

"Gaming" them is relative, and it's way too easy to draw the line at an arbitrary point in making this particular argument you're using. I could easily accuse you of gaming the AI also, and it would be every single bit as accurate as anything you claim as "gaming" the AI. That is to say, it's a worthless term in a strategy game and its usage as a negative sounds and *is* ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is that their "personalities" are, perhaps by necessity, simply all the same thing with higher weights so the dice picks stuff more often for one than the other, or they act the same way but at different thresholds. It's smoke and mirrors; they don't have actual personalities in the way that a human being has one. Perhaps you were arguing that it's more fun to play pretend than to play around the strategy the game presents? I'm not sure where you're going with what I've quoted really.

It sounds like you're asserting that trial and error gameplay is better than knowing the rules, but that probably isn't what you were going for.

Some people like me like to speedrun (not Civ ) without any tools or saves in one session.
Others like to use tools, macros, saved, stop - motion, etc to beat it at the most perfect time possible.

Not a valid analogy at all. Knowing how the game works is not the same thing as using save states or other tools that allow things that would otherwise be impossible in-game. Knowing how the AI works is not a macro, stop-motion, or even save-scumming. No dice.

I am claiming that knowing how a game works should not adversely impact its experience, but rather that it should improve the experience.

It is not rational to compare that position to using 3rd party tools to alter the game while playing it.

Edit: It's rather interesting to see you comparing knowledge of the game to TAS stuff, when your gameplay itself (reloading, using the worldbuilder) is actually the TAS stuff.

 

[Tall German Joe]

Oh TheMeInTeam!

 

[Ondskan]

Basically what I'm saying is that if I were given a Civ 4, completely re-modded with other personalities, other AI behavior, perhaps even other types of difficulty settings then re-discovering this and having to fight their unknown strengths and weaknesses I would find it alot more fun again.

Not as now where even I sadly know that Sitting Bull mostly will sit on his arse

I never use the world builder unless I'm just bored.
Why did you say that?

"Gaming" them is relative, and it's way too easy to draw the line at an arbitrary point in making this particular argument you're using. I could easily accuse you of gaming the AI also, and it would be every single bit as accurate as anything you claim as "gaming" the AI. That is to say, it's a worthless term in a strategy game and its usage as a negative sounds and *is* ridiculous.

No it's not. Gaming the AI is using a strategy you would never use against a human player. It's as simple as that. You know the AIs reaction and so you abuse it in a way it can't defend against. Somethin you'd also never do if it was your first time playing regardless of your skill.

 

[Manco Capac]

What did Joe do?

Nothing. It's just my typical frenchie who doesn't understand the perks of another language.

It was in fact "Oh Joe <3", knowing now the exact meaning of this expression. You see, language barrier can lead to many misconceptions.

But seems I inadvertantly and inexorably rubbed in the wrong way . Sigh, what is done is done. I can't retake what is said.

 

[Tall German Joe]

Nothing. It's just my typical frenchie who doesn't understand the perks of another language.

It was in fact "Oh Joe <3", knowing now the exact meaning of this expression. You see, language barrier can lead to many misconceptions.

But seems I inadvertantly and inexorably rubbed in the wrong way . Sigh, what is done is done. I can't retake what is said.

haha, I knew what you meant... read it as a chuckling facepalm, as if to say "can't believe you so obliviously gave this goofy troll the antagonism he was so desperate for!"

 

[soundjata]

It was my guess as well but I preferred not to mention it

Let's not worry about TMIT who is a grand master in the dark arts of trollery.

 

[lymond]

Ok, I have to ask this and risk of extreme embarrassment:

What does the "<3" symbol or emoticon mean?

yeah, I've seen it a thousand times, but never really knew what it meant and could not always figure out the context of its use.

 

[ben-jammin]

It's supposed to resemble a heart (sideways).

 

[lymond]

It's supposed to resemble a heart (sideways).

And here I though someone dropped their ice cream cone. Really, a heart..wow

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Oh TheMeInTeam!

Gooby Plz

Basically what I'm saying is that if I were given a Civ 4, completely re-modded with other personalities, other AI behavior, perhaps even other types of difficulty settings then re-discovering this and having to fight their unknown strengths and weaknesses I would find it alot more fun again.

I can agree with that, or rather I would like an AI that tries to win but is never 100% predictable...IE it can pick from several valid strategies in any given situation without giving any obvious tells as to which it has chosen. Such is much easier said than done, but IMO that would be closer to an ideal AI.

I never use the world builder unless I'm just bored.
Why did you say that?

This:

and then I did one more lil shameful thing when the Sumerians attacked me I reloaded and placed the city they took elsewhere.

Unless they autorazed the city right after you settled it (IE it was settled during the war or hit ASAP after settling with a chariot or something), "reloading and placing a city elsewhere" sounds like worldbuilder. Maybe I misinterpreted that line? Normally you would say "I reloaded and settled somewhere else" if such is what happened though .

Not that I care. Using worldbuilder in single-player/non HoF/XOTM/Forum games is 100% valid. It's in the game for a reason and can add enjoyment for a lot of people (I'm quite thankful for it as it has allowed me to create some funny maps). It just struck me as odd that you'd compare knowing the game's mechanics to using 3rd party programs, using the worldbuilder, or reloading...or perhaps even holding the latter 2 as less "gamey" than the knowledge.

No it's not. Gaming the AI is using a strategy you would never use against a human player. It's as simple as that.

Comedic gold. So, what "gamey" strategies are absolutely never used against humans, and how are they distinguishable from tactics you regularly use, such as tech trading? I think the answer to this will be interesting.

Also note that humans probably wouldn't let you reload on them .

You know the AIs reaction and so you abuse it in a way it can't defend against.

Unless you can distinguish as per my request above, I'll assert that playing the game at all is abusing the AI according to your definition. That sounds asinine, but if we accepted your definition, then playing any game with the AI as an experienced player would be "gaming" it.

Somethin you'd also never do if it was your first time playing regardless of your skill.

I believe in all of the millions of times this game has been played, nobody has reached their potential in their first time playing. The act of improving, learning the rules, and playing better is not inherently abuse and it does not make sense to use it when trying to define abuse/gaming of the AI.

Let's not worry about TMIT who is a grand master in the dark arts of trollery.

I resemble that remark!

Also it's probably best to stick to discussion of the topic. The forum has seen a few too many threads become about me directly, and while I don't mind it's pretty much never on topic ^_^.

And here I though someone dropped their ice cream cone. Really, I heart..wow

Better than dropping some other things...

...

<3.