Immortal Game #1

[Wrathful]

Hello again everyone. After having success with the Emperor game I previously posted, I have decided to post another game. Just as before, I will play short turnsets and wait for advice from the pros.

The settings are the same as before, with two big changes:

• Continents
  
• Standard Size (6 AIs)
  
• Immortal Difficulty
• Standard climate, sea level, etc.
• No Tribal Villages
• No Random Events
• Normal Speed

This will be my first game on Immortal.

Who shall our leader be this time? Let's find out...

Spoiler Leader :

Despite his title of "the Great", I believe that Alex is the lesser of the two Greek leaders. Pericles' Creative trait beats Aggressive in my book. In this case, Creative also boosts production of the Odeon, making it even better.

We are Philosophical again though, so that's nice.

And here is the start:

Spoiler Start :

My thoughts on the start, in no particular order:

• Going for Animal Husbandry first is an option here. We start with hunting. Grassland sheep is pretty good food.
• Could go for a work boat first I suppose. In that case I would grow on sheep and work 2 forested grassland hills at size 2
  
• Tundra in the south indicates that we are in the southern part of the map.
  
• Marble will be good for later. Great Library + National Epic? I may tech Music again.

What do you guys think? AH first? In that case first build in capital would be a worker.

Starting save attached. Let's hope we can lead Greece to glory!

 

[Fippy]

Maybe moving your scout will show something interesting as he can reach some hills for good view.
If not i would probably settle on incense ~~

It's not improving the city tile and loses fresh water, but if working with what we see only i find it important having the 2 green hills. Then worker first, AH & mining should be okay. With SIP there are no improvements for your worker after sheep.

Izuul

 

[Izuul]

AH + Worker first is definitely stronger than WB first for just 4F clams. I don't see a clear alternative to SIP right now, but i would probably move the scout 2NW to see if there's anything over there to warrant settling on the incense. It looks like at least two desert tiles over there though, so that's not too promising. I don't really like having to settle on a river grass hill (and the only production tile available before BW) though. Maybe settling on incense is the best option regardless of what lies west. At the moment that's what i think i would do.

This looks like a pretty tough start. The land seems to end to the east and there's tundra visible south and desert visible west.

 

[lymond]

Pedro got his wish

Greeks love that tundra

I agree on incense..plus, you may luck out on something in the W fog

 

[Pedro78]

Pedro got his wish

Yup, no double-corn-gems start for you Lymo

MAN I like this start. I might shadow.

Obvsl move scout first 2NW. If nothing I see two options -

• AH-mining-BW (settle on incense, build worker)
• mining-BW-AH (SIP, build wb, grow on Sheep for 7 turns then work 1F2H tiles until wb is done, then build worker @size2)

I would go for the second option. It gives you more commerce (especially good as we can't see any rivers) and worker will be occupied for the whole time. Plus earlier BW means more hammers into fogbusters, safer from barbs. Going for wb first when you have other food available isn't always bad, and in some cases it's the right choice -- and I think in this case it's a good move. Now y'all can feel free to spit on me and to burn me at the stake for choosing to go wb first for a single clam

 

[elmurcis]

Can say for sure - not easy start

Spoiler :

why somebody else gets all good food and city spots? why???

Spoiler :

Rush or not to rush with Phalanx... but can lose somebody to hate for somebody else who likes to hate somebody.. if allow to hate, diplo might be easier atleast early....

 

[Wrathful]

Obvsl move scout first 2NW. If nothing I see two options -

• AH-mining-BW (settle on incense, build worker)
• mining-BW-AH (SIP, build wb, grow on Sheep for 7 turns then work 1F2H tiles until wb is done, then build worker @size2)

I would go for the second option. It gives you more commerce (especially good as we can't see any rivers) and worker will be occupied for the whole time. Plus earlier BW means more hammers into fogbusters, safer from barbs. Going for wb first when you have other food available isn't always bad, and in some cases it's the right choice -- and I think in this case it's a good move. Now y'all can feel free to spit on me and to burn me at the stake for choosing to go wb first for a single clam

Hmm...we seem to be split here. This is certainly a tougher start than the previous one.
I like the second option personally. We seem to have very little commerce here. I'm also a little scared of the inevitable barbarians with the tundra in the south. Things would be different if we started with mining.

But I see the merits of both options. What to do...

Let's move that scout and see what happens.

Spoiler Scout Move :

Well, we have more incense!

I think I'll go with Pedro's option. We lose a riverside hill, but we get to BW faster.

So, I played the first few turns.

Spoiler To T12 :

Settled in place. Production set to work boat. Will work the sheep for 7 turns, then switch to a forested grassland hill. Will set research to Mining in 5 turns.

My scout begins exploring our landmass. It's not looking very good...

That's a lot of tundra.

Ah, but now we've found something!

This looks like a decent spot.

Mining finished this turn. BW next.

The capital grew to size 2 by the way. Working two grassland hill forests to get out that work boat.

T12: Got the work boat. Clams improved. Worker next. This is actually good timing. The worker will complete one turn before BW is finished. He will move into a forest and can then immediately start chopping. Maybe he'll build a mine too.

Screenshot of the explored land:

Looks like we have flood plains in the northwest. Quite far away though.

The sheep is the only potential second city spot I can think of.

I should have scouted to the east of my capital with my scout. Could be seafood there. Oh well.

Will stop here. All things considered, this is looking pretty tough. I don't think we'll see Cuirs vs. Archers here!

 

[Fippy]

I would say you can grow to size 4 and whip your worker, creates some extra hammers compared to slow building.
Maybe on barracks? Warriors with cover are nice.

GLH looks tempting
City marker could be moved down 1s nps.

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler turn 12 :

Chose the second option aswell.

Met Zara on T8 or so, he has all his EPs on me so it might be semi-isolation. Floodplains to the north look tempting, definitely have to grab some of it before Zara does. The pig spot looks a bit close to him and very far away but might even be worth grabbing, especially if semi-iso I want some good land to work with. Else we'll probably have to kick his arse.

Oh and forgive my stupid city mark I forgot about the fish lol

About your game:

• Early on, send your scouting units in directions that are likely to either reveal good city spots or find new AIs. You sent him to the tundra which is very bad.
• Not sure if you're doing this, but using only one movement point per turn after turn 5 is recommended when you have a scout as it can basically keep him alive forever (unless you're in the jungle and have panthers)

I wouldn't whip a worker here. Timing is perfect with discovery of BW and it can start chopping right away. I'd rather grow to size 4 and 2whip + chop a settler, much faster imo. I'm not keen on the GLH here as the good land isn't coastal.

Edit - Another reason for wb first here is that you will have the same food surplus on size 2 with an improved clam as with an improved sheep, as unimproved sheep is +3 but unimproved clam only +2. Oh and I don't see Cuirs vs Archers here either. Maybe tanks vs longbows though

Oh and looking at the demographics is good early on. Here for example you learn that there is one creative AI and no CHA leaders. Not sure about the Mansa/Hammy things as I didn't look at the IMM starting units.

 

[Fippy]

I wouldn't whip a worker here. Timing is perfect with discovery of BW and it can start chopping right away. I'd rather grow to size 4 and 2whip + chop a settler, much faster imo.

Why? Growing size 4 and whipping is only 1t slower than 10t & staying at size 2 anyways, but for that turn you get some hammers that you are not creating with slow building.

 

[Pedro78]

3 turns slower actually: you grow to size 4 at T+10, revolt to slavery at T+11 and whip at T+12, but yeah, I just re-did the maths (haven't done them before) and this looks like a better option as you gain one early warrior plus 12 hammers after worker is done. Thanks for pointing this out

Edit - It does also allow to save some forests and maybe get an early barracks for cover warriors

 

[Fippy]

nps, i did not count the slavery turn cos that will be needed for a settler either way i think

I think it's mostly showing that AH and worker first are not really a worse option (my feeling says it's actually better), you will want AH with this weak start either way cos it's the best tile, and yup you can chop but it's not into something great.
While by stepping away from the river mine, you actually get something to improve sooner, and have a better tile in sheep.

 

[Pedro78]

Why don't you play to turn 50 or so, starting with AH? Otherwise I'll do it myself, just to settle the debate. I'm pretty sure that the fishing strategy is better, but finding out that I'm wrong could be healthy aswell

 

[Izuul]

I played around a little with AH first. There are some dead worker turns before BW comes in and I think Mining might come 1T late for the worker to mine the river grass hill. I think with the 1c from sheep and 1c from the mine it works out about the same as the 2c clams. I'm pretty sure you get 3 tiles improved quicker though with the sheep and 2 mines.

I might try both of them later out of curiosity. I enjoy that kind of thing.

 

[Fippy]

Mostly cos it's not really interesting for me, comparing games like that is always difficult.
If my feeling is wrong, i will not lose sleep over that and would rather not derail Wrathful's thread too much.

 

[Wrathful]

Early on, send your scouting units in directions that are likely to either reveal good city spots or find new AIs. You sent him to the tundra which is very bad.

Oops. You are right. Since we can move faster with the scout it shouldn't negatively impact the game too much I hope.

Oh and looking at the demographics is good early on. Here for example you learn that there is one creative AI and no CHA leaders. Not sure about the Mansa/Hammy things as I didn't look at the IMM starting units.

Funny, I had actually planned on doing just that, but I forgot.

Will grow to size 4 and whip the worker as suggested. I like how this tactic utilizes the Aggressive trait (faster barracks).
Cover warriors would certainly help with the barbarians.

About the AH vs work boat debate: I would love to see both approaches played out. Don't worry about derailing the thread or anything, I don't mind.

Anyway, I played until first worker produced:

Spoiler To T24 :

Switched capital build to barracks.

Scout had a tough time exploring with a lion in his vicinity.

T20: Met Genghis Khan. Turns out we are not semi-isolated as predicted by Pedro (although his reasoning was sound).

He seems pretty far away. Already at 2 cities though.

The land in the northwest is very good, but it's far away.
Plus, we have another problem:

Creative Zara's green borders are visible. If we're not lucky he'll grab the land before we can get it.

T22: Capital reached size 4 this turn. Will build a worker for 1 turn. Next turn we'll revolt into slavery and whip the worker after anarchy. Wishing I was Spiritual here.

Also made contact with Zara Yaqob this turn. He is the worst enemy of Genghis Khan.

Will put my espionage points on him. He is only at one city still, but I suspect he will start expanding quickly soon.

T23: BW finished. Revolt to slavery. Research set to Animal Husbandry. We have our first stroke of good luck in the game and discover copper. Barb defense assured.

T24: Worker whipped.

I'm going to stop here. Overview of the current situation:

Some ideas/questions I had:

• What should I do with the worker? Improving copper would be my guess. I could chop, but what would I chop? Worker can improve copper then chop for a settler perhaps.
• Second city: What do you guys think? Sheep/corn? Could head for the flood plains, but it's just so far away. Is it worth it?
• GLH: It would be great (pun intended), but I'm not sure I can get there in time. I have to get through AH, then Sailing, then Masonry before I can even start it. There aren't very many good coastal spots based on what we can see either.

I am thinking about pulling off some kind of Axe attack against Zara. The way I see it, the best land is near his territory. I'm willing to be that his capital is nice too. We're going to end up fighting him anyway I think. Maybe Civ veterans could win the game with my present land, but I would like something better.

We have copper in capital. Could try a pure axe rush. Barracks means cover axes. I am not very comfortable with this. Would need to grab The Wheel to connect copper. Writing would be nice to scout Zara's land.

It's very risky, to be sure.

Could also try an Axepult attack. Since we're Philosophical, I could get a quick Great Scientists to bulb Mathematics. This seems like a safer option.

What do you guys think?

 

[Lain]

I'm not sure about setting research to AH right now. Might want The Wheel first, at least? Not sure how bad barbs can be, but an axe or two wouldn't hurt especially with the long distance settles. Only so much warriors can do. And a quick road connection to your 2nd city will boost research.

Big problem here is commerce, I see two ways to address that:

1) Skip AH entirely. Tech Wheel, Agriculture, Pottery (-> cottage the floodplains, river tile and incense in the capital). Okay, improving the sheep(s) is good and all, but ultimately it's 150 or so for 2 more. What would you do with that addtional production? Would only result in more units/cities that you can't really pay for right now.

2) Wheel, AH and straight to Writing. Would be better if creative, but you can chop out 2-3 libraries and hire scientists. Could result in a Maths bulb (using PHI) and follow-up with Axepult. Forego Pottery, accounting for the low happy cap. Scientists are better short-term, good enough to reach Construction at least. The only tech you need to get if you bulb Math. I see many forests for army chops, so whipping won't be required.

Would do this with 3 cities... adding sheep-corn and floodplains now. Backfill after the war as seen fit.

(Or just Horse Archers if AH reveals something)

 

[Pedro78]

@Fippy I understand, that's ok, I won't lose sleep either ^^

Spoiler turn 24 :

Switched production to warrior (barracks is nice but I want a fogbuster first, mostly to secure my city spots). Warrior is done on the turn Athens grows to size 4.

Meanwhile I meet Genghis Khan (already knew we were not semi-iso because Zara switched his EPs a few turns back).

BW on turn 23, worker whipped on turn 24. Scout stopped next to the Sheep+Corn spot to fogbust. BFC copper is very nice but I think I'm going AH first for two reasons:

• I want the Sheep before Axemen -- need the food, barbs aren't too crazy on IMM and I don't have much excess production/worker turns to build Axes
• Revealing Horses is critical: if I find some then I'll go for a compact settling plan and take Zara out with HAs. If I don't I want to settle much more aggressively so I secure good land.

Just read @Lain 's comment. Might also grab the land I can and follow up with a rather late axepult on Zara, would probably be optimal on IMM (wouldn't do that on deity). I don't like the maths bulb here as you'll have plenty stuff to do while waiting for war (cottaging these FPs etc.), have decent room for expansion and stuff. I would ignore the tundra completely though.

Oh and please no axe rush lol. It can be good sometimes but here Zara is far away and you have some land to settle. Axe rush is good when you have no options, when you have other options it's often risky and suboptimal. Right now I'm thinking HAs or pults on Zara, bulb Astro, win the game with cannons kind of stuff. Certainly no pre-1000AD victories though

Oh and I would probably get every worker tech, though. AH is required for both sheeps and Pottery is needed for commerce, cannot skip either of them imo. I like your minimalistic thinking, Lain, but here the opportunity cost of skipping either one of AH/Pottery is just too big

 

[Fippy]

I would agree with a pure axe rush here (as mentioned by wrathful actually)
Imo the best use of that cap would be getting something better via agg force ~~

Zara is not that far away actually, especially if he settles near your marked corn & sheep spot (which i would expect).
Cover Axes are pretty good, they are not HAs but they have roughly the same attack power.

So that would be worker overflow into another worker for chops (and roads soon), then probably 1 warrior as happy guard before copper gets connected and it's not possible anymore..then barracks and Axes.

 

[Pedro78]

I would agree with a pure axe rush

You love axes, eh? 12 tiles away with no roads seems awfully long to me. And considering the added maintenance cost and required workerforce to deal with the early widespread empire I think it's more profitable to take Zara out later. Are we going to disagree on every aspect of this game?