Immortal Game #1

[Pedro78]

What about Bud/Hind dates? 2 Myst civs on other continent or most likely not? Any other CRE (outside Zara)? Religion % worldwide? Anything from that can adjust overall strategy long before local wars

Buddhism T8, 9%
Hinduism T15, 16%
At least one Myst starter. Judaism not founded yet but Zara is teching Sailing and GK usually doesn't go for the religious stuff, even though it would be nice. I don't think this is very important, though -- we don't learn a whole lot from this info.

However, the T1 demographics tell us that Mansa is not in the game (max soldiers is 21k, Mansa would be 26k on IMM -- 3 Skirms = 12k, Mining=2k, Hunting=2k, Wheel=4k, Archery=6k). Also no CHA or CRE leaders. The rest isn't very important.

 

[Fippy]

I think it's useful considering what would i do at max difficultly
Let's be serious about that for one minute, on deity you could neither steal his copper or any floodplains.
It's either phalanxes with bfc copper (you need some experience with that, sure) or construction with cities like that deer.

If you can take that copper spot, it's cos Zara allows you doing so.
I never found that super useful for hmm..practise? games.
Deer has fast connection, can share copper & marble tiles, and gives +1 happy.
Want to be ready for "Lain Iso games" (sorry i hope you know i mean that positive, lol) ?
You know what to do..

 

[Pedro78]

I think it's useful considering what would i do at max difficultly
Let's be serious about that for one minute, on deity you could neither steal his copper or any floodplains.

That's 100% true, but here stealing his copper is just too tempting. Same as building Oracle @800BC when still available. Same as winning the game @T200 instead of T250. I'm simply taking the opportunities that the map gives me

However, looking at how things are going on IMM, I'm beggining to like the 1-city Phalanx rush much more, especially on deity.

"Lain iso games" (I love them too lol) are also about taking every opportunity that the game gives you, i.e. squeezing the juice out of the map. So imo there's nothing wrong with grabbing that copper spot. And looking at how motivated Wrathful is, I have no doubt that he'll soon be playing ugly deity maps along with us
(that might be the secret reason why I'm shadowing this IMM game )

 

[Fippy]

You might laugh but, i see no real value in that copper spot
Think i played too many ugly maps.
Everybody join the dark side ~~

 

[Wrathful]

Let's be serious about that for one minute, on deity you could neither steal his copper or any floodplains.

That's a good point, especially considering the fact that Zara tends to be fast at expansion.

My decision to settle the corn was primarily motivated by the distance maintenance costs. Even though it's pretty close to my capital, the city is costing me 3GPT - more than I thought it would be. The copper spot only costs Pedro 1GPT more.
But I can get a road connection to the corn city quicker. Can also farm the corn when I get Agriculture.

Perhaps I felt that I'm not really equipped to make the most out of the flood plains at the moment? Lacking Pottery, worker to build cottages, etc.

I have no doubt that he'll soon be playing ugly deity maps along with us

Well, I don't know about that...
I have a long way to go. Even after I master Immortal I still have to get through "easy" Deity. And some of the games played in the Deity Isolation thread fall into an even higher difficulty level. The Boudica isolation game from that thread is one of the hardest maps ever posted in this forum in my opinion.

With that in mind, I made some more progress.

Spoiler To T50 :

Moved one of the tundra fogbusters as Gumbolt suggested.

T46: Warrior finished in capital, will slow-build the settler for 4 turns until completion.
Warrior moved to the NW for more fogbusting.

T47: Espionage now shows Zara teching Fishing.
(He went for Sailing next.)

T50: Settler finished. He will go to the copper I suppose. Capital works on warrior next. Will grow to size 5 and 2-pop whip something. (Worker? Settler for deer?)

Worker finished road connection to second city. Will farm corn next. I've seen few barbarians so far and the tundra is pretty secure so I have delayed hooking up copper.

Finished teching Agriculture this turn. Pottery next.

Zara has Chariots. Genghis has Archers still.

My scout has been dancing around in the north. The goal is to get the warrior to the plains hill forest marked "Warrior Destination" without anyone dying. It will be tough to get the warrior across the flood plains. I want to use the scout's 2-movement to check for barbs before moving the warrior.

 

[Pedro78]

You might laugh but, i see no real value in that copper spot

My decision to settle the corn was primarily motivated by the distance maintenance costs

This does only make sense if you don't intend to get the copper spot. And even then, the Copper spot isn't very far away, and has a good short-mid term commerce potential so distance cost shouldn't really come into play here.

Spoiler turn 50 :

On T46, the forest I just chopped regrows -- kinda lucky but also shows the interest of chopping the forests where the chance of regrowth is maximal. Judaism founded but it's not Zara (teching sailing) and not Genghis as his score didn't move:

Worker now chops the pre-chopped forest. OF goes into another worker. Athens will then build a Phalanx while growing to size 5.

On T47 my warrior wins an 85% fight against a barb Archer (25% fortify+forest+river crossing).

On T50 Corinth is settled on the corn spot, it will also build a worker because it has nothing else to do for now and is a pretty useless city until I start rushing. Priority for workers will be roading and then cottaging because commerce is a major issue right now. It would certainly have been better to settle the corn spot first and then the copper (would have allowed to skip worker in copper spot), but also riskier.

Agriculture next turn. Then Pottery-Writing-Myst-Masonry (bulb maths). If Oracle still available, which is possible on IMM then it would be really cool to take CoL with it (feel free to hate me for it, Fippy )

 

[Wrathful]

On T46, the forest I just chopped regrows -- kinda lucky but also shows the interest of chopping the forests where the chance of regrowth is maximal.

So, forest regrowth is highest when the forest is surrounded by other forests?
In the image below, the forest marked "X" would have the highest chance to regrow, yes?

This does only make sense if you don't intend to get the copper spot. And even then, the Copper spot isn't very far away, and has a good short-mid term commerce potential so distance cost shouldn't really come into play here.

Yeah, I kind of overestimated the cost of the copper spot. It only costs one more gold per turn (I thought it would be more than that).

Update to Turn 57:

Spoiler To T57 :

Settler heads to the copper spot.

T51: Announcement reveals that Genghis and Zara are fairly powerful. Someone else is on top. Shaka? Ragnar?

3rd border pop in Athens reveals double fish to the east!!!!

Just kidding!

(Actually, there could be seafood in the unexplored ocean tiles.)

The border pop also allows me to move my fogbuster. He follows Zara's archer.

Looks like the entire south is fogbusted now.

Worker starts farming corn.

T52: Well, Zara got his copper after all.

I actually could have gotten there in time if I had built a warrior first instead of a barracks. That decision set me back 2 turns.

So if I replay the game from T0 and build a warrior first I could settle the corn and then the copper before Zara has his chance.

But I don't want to do that. Going for the corn first was my decision and I feel that I must stick with it.

I think this proves that, on Deity, we would have had no chance of getting the copper or the flood plains. They start with two settlers so their expansion is basically doubled. Zara would have gotten the copper around T30, I'm guessing.

Anyway, I changed plans and sent my settler to the tundra.

I'm still heading for Pottery, though. Maybe it's not worth it, but I can still cottage the river tile in the capital, the incense, and maybe the spice tiles in Sparta. If I settle the fish + marble spot I will have tiles to cottage after a border pop.
And don't forgot granaries. The previous game I posted here convinced me that they extremely powerful.
Pottery also speeds up Writing.

T53: Since the deer city will take Athens' copper soon, I will whip this worker 4 > 2. I'm working the coast here for more commerce. This allows me to finish Pottery in 4 turns instead of 5.

New warrior produced in Athens will check for seafood in the east and then head back to be military police I guess.

T55: Corinth settled. Grabs the copper from Athens.

T56: Zara is teching Masonry. Warrior reveals that there is no seafood in the east.
Worker 2-pop whipped in Athens. Overflow will go into granary. (Getting Pottery next turn.)

T57: Pottery done. Research set to Writing.
Deleted a warrior to the north to avoid unit costs. With Zara's city there and copper connected soon I feel safer about the barbs.

I attached the save; feel free to critique!

 

[elmurcis]

Plains has lower chance for forest to spread. Best regrowth chance would be grassland tile with 4 forest tiles around (like chess table)
For example hill 2N from X has good chance to regrow if chop.
And side note - if get some crazy 4-5-6 Gems start but next to jungle, can use warrior to "junglebust" tile from growing over with jungles. Ofcourse, with Barbs this is impossible as you will need them for real fogbust, but without - I have had starts with 2 warriors defending Gems from overgrowing while my worker improves food 1st

 

[Pedro78]

Plains has lower chance for forest to spread

On any unimproved tile (roads don't count), each turn, forest growth probability = (Number of adjacent forests)/1000. Diagonals don't count. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the tile being flat/hilled or grass/plains/tundra.

And jungle growth probability is (number of adjacent jungles)/500 btw

 

[dutchfire]

Note that according to that formula forest regrowth is thus much more relevant on slower speeds, since it depends on the number of turns and does not scale with speed. (The same holds for finding a metal in a worked mine, right?)

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler turn 57 :

• On T51 Zara becomes GK's worst ennemy
• T55 Corinth is connected, I decide to improve the corn before I road into Sparta as Pottery is coming in pretty soon
• T57 3 workers, roading in progress, Pottery in 3 turns. One Phalanx moving up to Sparta, warrior will move down for MP in Athens. Will whip a granary at size 5. No hurry to settle the deer spot. One barb Archer in the fog to the south, warrior fortified in the forest hoping to take him out at some point. Another Phalanx will come soon enough anyway. It's a slow start no doubt.

@Wrathful well your play looks a bit more "deity-proof" than mine here for sure. A few things -

• If you wanted the copper spot you should have gone for it first
• Pottery is still necessary when going for a construction rush
• Moving on Zara's Archer isn't safe as he'll move before the barbs in the IBT
• I don't like the 2whip worker- OF into granary thing. I'd much rather "perfect" 2whip the granary and get the worker later, esepcially as you already had 2 workers
• Maybe I'll play on from your save as having the copper spot gives me too big a boost -- comparing wouldn't be very interesting anymore. Still attached my save

@dutchfire Yeah that's true. Haven't looked at the formula for metal/gems pops but I think it's the same.

 

[elmurcis]

On any unimproved tile (roads don't count), each turn, forest growth probability = (Number of adjacent forests)/1000. Diagonals don't count. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the tile being flat/hilled or grass/plains/tundra.

And jungle growth probability is (number of adjacent jungles)/500 btw

Oh, my bad... you should be right about this.. although experience on Mara speed (where you really can "farm" forests ) kind of favor grassland forests... propably just lucky odds..

 

[Wrathful]

If you wanted the copper spot you should have gone for it first

You are correct of course. I appear to have overestimated the distance maintenance costs and underestimated Zara's expansion speed. I the best way to gauge these things is simply to play many games.
Maybe it's for the best. Helps me prepare for Deity.

I don't like the 2whip worker- OF into granary thing. I'd much rather "perfect" 2whip the granary and get the worker later, esepcially as you already had 2 workers

Yeah, thinking back on it it would have been better to just 2-pop whip the granary.

Update to T65:

Spoiler To T65 :

T58: Copper connected in the empire. I can start building Phalanxes.

T60: Great Wall built by an unknown AI. Zara is pleased now ("Years of peace have strengthened our relations").
First cottage built.

T61: Oracle built too. Zara did not get it. Looks like no Oracle-CoL cheese here!
Zara is going for Priesthood anyway though. Sounds good to me!

T65: Zara is teching Iron Working.
Workers roading to Zara for trade routes.

Not sure what else to say...save attached for those interested.

 

[Pedro78]

Helps me prepare for Deity

Good mindset

Spoiler turn 62 :

Played on from your save.

Chopped a "perfect" granary in Athens (worked the unimproved incense for 1T - 1F1C tradeoff for 6F after growth). One worker will road into Zara. I won't cottage the Incense because it's a food-negative tile (meaning I won't be able to work it a lot) and I'll end up smashing it anyway. Better to simply cottage dry grass tiles. By the way 4 workers is way too much here. 2 would probably be enough given the land you have. Now they are pre-chopping/building mines as they don't have anything relevant to do.

Athens will 3whip a library. Sparta will 1whip a granary, then 2whip a library with the help of one chop and run scientists... its tiles are just too crappy.

I don't like your placement of Corinth. Allows to get the furs for later but is a crappy city -- would have been better 3S of Athens to share the Sheep and a bunch of cottages, no hurry in getting the deer.
Some exploration reveals a double-seafood spot to the south. Not worth settling
Zara got Priesthood -- no Oracle for us. Still 4 cities. If he keeps expanding that slow then taking him out will be a breeze.

About your game -

• You should be getting a granary in Corinth and then a monument, barracks only come after that
• Your workers could be roading into Zara via the corn farm instead of a useless plains tile (minor mistake)
• Not sure what you exactly did with your workers but the food in Corinth should already be improved with that much workforce

 

[Wrathful]

Some exploration reveals a double-seafood spot to the south. Not worth settling

Do you mean it's not worth settling at the moment, or not worth settling until after we attack Zara?

Not sure what you exactly did with your workers but the food in Corinth should already be improved with that much workforce

I myself was puzzled by this - you seem to have accomplished much more with the workers than I did.

It looks like I chopped a forest for the granary in Sparta. Those 3 worker turns could have been used to finish the deer camp.

Yes, I think I could have managed the workers a lot better.

But what's done is done. I have continued.

Spoiler To T72 :

Got lucky with the roading - Zara decided to hook up his sheep.

This will greatly speed up my connection to him.

T68: Writing done. Research set to Mysticism > Masonry.

Will bulb Mathematics with a quick GS, get Construction, and wage war against puny Ethiopia.

In the meantime though, I opened borders with Zara and got 3 more commerce.

T69: As Pedro predicted, my workers are running low on things to do. Will prechop forests I suppose.

T71: Library 3-pop whipped in Athens.

T72: Now I see why Corinth should have been settled closer to Athens.
I want to work 2 scientists in Athens. Something like this:

The city can't grow anyway due to happy cap.

If Corinth were closer it could work the sheep and the other grassland cottage.

I get to work tundra deer instead.

Will stop here.

 

[Pedro78]

Do you mean it's not worth settling at the moment, or not worth settling until after we attack Zara?

My bad, didn't finish my sentence. I mean not worth settling until you find a way to give it a quick border pop.

Spoiler turn 72 :

• T66 GK starts plotting. He's annoyed with Zara and Cautious with me, plus he has swordsmen so his power rating is probably higher than Zara's --> he's most likely plotting on Zara (being the worst ennemy doesn't count in war decision). I'm now connected to Zara, can trade for Sheep but I don't need good relations with him (pleased already and will attack me soon enough, plus GK might ask me to cut relations)
• T67 Zara settles a fifth city to the north.. GK must be really far away so I don't feel threatened at all, especially with Agg Phalanxes. If he DoWs Zara I might dogpile before I reach Construction
• After writing research is set to Mysticism-Masonry. No hurry to turn the slider up yet. Athens working on a GS, soon Sparta will do the same. Waiting for Addis Ababa's second border pop so I can scout Zara out. Workers pre-chopping forests. Corinth's placement still annoying me

Got lucky with the roading - Zara decided to hook up his sheep.

The AIs always road the improved resources. They usually (maybe always, idk) even build the road before they build the improvement -- no luck involved here.

 

[Wrathful]

My bad, didn't finish my sentence. I mean not worth settling until you find a way to give it a quick border pop.

Only way I can think of would be Caste system and running an artist for three turns.
Maybe building culture with Music?

Since we have marble, are philosophical, and are going to get Masonry for Construction, I would assume that going down the Aesthetics line after Construction is a good move?
I guess it also depends on Zara's land.

Anyway, I played until turn 80.

Spoiler To T80 :

T73: Whipped granary in Corinth, monument next. The fur will improve our happy cap, which isn't very good right now.
Will up my slider for Masonry after I get the library in Corinth. I have a marble tile to improve and share with Corinth later.

T74: Genghis Khan got swordsmen and expanded to his sixth city. He is not yet plotting, although judging by Pedro's game he is clearly rolling the war dice.
Trade connection also formed with him this turn. He has clam and deer, so his capital could be on the coast near the north.

T76: Zara going for Monotheism like an idiot. Why not Alphabet?

T77: Masonry finished. 0% research set to Alphabet. Will switch to Construction after Mathematics bulb in 4 turns.
Hoping to trade for Alphabet.

T78: Zara got his 6th city somewhere.

T79: Got lucky with forest spread by Corinth. According to Pedro's formula there was only a 1 in 1000 chance of this happening.

T80: With a Phalanx in Sparta and more on the way I decide to send my scout into Zara's land. It's not looking good so far.

Walls + Hill + Promoted archers and axemen = pain.
I'm missing the days of two skirmishers on flatland in 600 AD already!

Will stop here. Some thoughts on the game

• Corinth's whip anger will expire soon allowing me to work the marble.
• With a GS produced next turn I will bulb Mathematics and start researching Construction.
• My excess of prechopped forests and workers should allow me to surge out a big army with Mathematics.

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler turn 80 :

I won't comment much as I know you look at the saves

About my game -

• Zara settled a stupid city 4W of Corinth. Probably settle on a strategic resource (AIs often do that when they find iron). Slightly annoying as it grabs a few forests that were supposed to be mine (although I didn't pre-chop them yet)
• Maths and Masonry in, going for Construction, beaker rate really low. Started pre-whipping Phalanxes in Athens (no good tiles to work at size 5). As this is IMM, all the forests + a couple of whips should provide me with all the needed units to take Zara out.

About your game -

• The chances that one forest grows in your empire at some point are actually pretty high -- one forest growing near Corinth isn't exceptional (although it's nice for sure)
• You should have banked gold while waiting for maths bulb so you can spend all your beakers into Construction. Here you've wasted a great deal into Alpha, which will slow down your attack date.
• Did you chop the library in Sparta?
• I spot a few micro mistakes - unhappiness in Corinth, Athens could re-grow faster to size 5, same with Sparta, quarry should already be improved (conidering you got Masonry 3 turns ago and dedicated 2 workers to it) , granary not optimized (I think) etc.These things will come with practice but you can look at my save to get an idea of how things could be done better (not saying my micro is perfect, it's far from it)

Going the Aesth route can be good if Zara has a lot of forests and if you can get to Litt in a reasonable timeline to secure GLib. Otherwise it's simply not worth it and you're better off going straight for Astro.

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks again for playing along, Pedro. Really appreciate it.

Did you chop the library in Sparta?

Looking back at old saves reveals that I chopped for Sparta's granary; this created overflow that I put into the library. I then worked the grassland mine for 2 turns and whipped the library 4 > 2.

You should have banked gold while waiting for maths bulb so you can spend all your beakers into Construction. Here you've wasted a great deal into Alpha, which will slow down your attack date.

To be fair, I never turned up my slider past 0% for Alphabet. Those beakers were created by scientists. Alphabet was mostly a placeholder. I also figured that I will trade for it eventually anyway. Maybe I could give Genghis Khan Construction for it. (He hates Zara and won't trade him Construction.)

granary not optimized

I realize that this is off-topic (sort of), but how exactly does one optimize a granary?
I seem to remember reading that you should whip the granary when the city's food bin is half full. Is this correct?

Athens could re-grow faster to size 5

I didn't consider that, but you are right!
I might hold off on Sparta for one turn though because it has whip anger (no point in growing).


Update to Turn 88:

Spoiler To T88 :

T81: Great Scientist produced. Mathematics bulbed. Research set to Construction.
Zara is teching Writing.

T82: Zara's land is pretty awesome:

I've spotted at least three settlers so far. He's expanding quickly now.

T83: Spotted Ivory in Zara's land. Better kill him before he gets War Elephants...that would be bad.

T84: Zara got a city by Corinth (the one Pedro talked about).
With Mathematics researched, I'm going to go ahead and chop the forest 2E 1N of the Zara's new city. I should be able to get it before Zara's culture grabs it.
It won't give the full 30 hammers, but it's better than nothing.
(It gives 20 hammers, just found out when I moved my worker.)

T85: Zara's teching CoL. He wants Confucianism. He might not get there in time though.

T88: Found Zara's stack. It's in Gondar.

A few of those guys are "city defender" type units meant to escort the settler.

Not too bad. We can take that with catapults.

I'll stop here.

Starting unit production. Got out some Phalanxes and a spearman.

I might delete my scout because it's costing me money.

 

[lymond]

I seem to remember reading that you should whip the granary when the city's food bin is half full. Is this correct?

No, it's a common misconception since the granary mechanics are certainly confusing. Basically, a city's food bin at half full is the benchmark for granary optimization. The granary should be finished (built) such that the city's food bar is at or below that mark on that turn. So you must take the city's food surplus into account as well.

Note though a little trick if you finish a granary at a not so optimal point in the city's growth. You can use the "avoid growth" button for a turn as the city will still feed the granary during that turn. Probably only good idea with cities with higher food surplus though.

(ha..and it's certainly not off-topic when the whole idea of this is to learn)