Immortal: Normal to get crushed in score?

[fmlizard2]

I'm usually an Emperor player, but I have gotten to the point where I almost always win relatively handily there when using more familiar strategies. So I figured I would take my first real stab at Immortal (I've won there a couple times when cooking the settings, like Archipelago map OCC and such).

I'm doing a Pangaea, as Babylon, shooting for a win. It is only about 1500 AD and I have already reached the Modern Era, with Plastics, Flight, Electronics, etc. all in the bag. Already shot up my Scientific Revolution policy. As goes, I am doing just fine, about 5-7 techs ahead of my competitors.

Problem is, those competitors are simply enormous. Korea has a game score of 1700 and nearly half the pangaea, Siam has 1600 and another huge chunk. I have 5 cities and a score of 600. I'm pretty much in perma-war with Korea, holding them off with a buffer city state and ranged units. Haven't lost a unit even though he has a huge army. Washington just invaded from the back and I have mechs while he has rifles, so I like my chances. Every remaining Civ has a border with me...viva pangaea

Is it normal to trail the AI so badly in most measures when pursuing a win on Immortal? Or is this just a game of two runaways? And do I have a good chance of winning this thing when so massively outsized?

 

[RedRover57]

The short answer - yes. Unless you are going for a domination win you will always be low in score compared with the AI on Immortal and particularly Deity. Take a look at my thread on Deity Challenge 3. I won a science victory on turn 266 with a score of 643. Rome had a final score of 2219. All it requires is to out-tech the AI, beat them to the spaceship and survive while doing so. It's important to avoid being nuked, so winning a science victory in the early 200's is the best bet, if possible. If not just cross your fingers that the nearest neighbor doesn't go for nukes (like in my game).

 

[chazzycat]

Yeah it's kinda normal when you go tall. You can probably still win as long as you can blast off before the nukes start flying. That's probably more of a concern than the AI reaching a victory condition before you. If you are 5-7 techs ahead, you should be ok.

 

[Austere]

In my admittedly limited experience that's pretty normal. The AI has a really high score for a lot of reasons: they get huge happiness bonuses, always have massive pop, often build a bunch of random wonders and found / capture a lot of cities.

Normally if you're going for science victory you'll only have a few focused cities, and you won't generally invest in a significant military to do a lot of conquering (if any).

However, as has been pointed out before, the AI isn't great at focusing on a victory plan. It will build out a nice (usually superior, if going for science) empire, but it won't translate that into any specific push towards a win. They'll take out a neighbor or two, they'll adopt a bunch of policies, they'll ally a few CSes, they'll get some tech going, but they won't pinpoint anything and rush to a victory condition.

So, usually, although you're one of the lowest (or dead last) civilizations on the demographics page, if you're going science you can usually just hop on your spaceship and win the game, points values be damned.

 

[RedRover57]

It is only about 1500 AD and I have already reached the Modern Era, with Plastics, Flight, Electronics, etc. all in the bag.

Just curious. Why do you have Plastics? It's not needed for a science victory. Beeline to Rocketry (build the Apollo project) then beeline to Nanotechnology. Build the parts and win.

 

[fmlizard2]

Just curious. Why do you have Plastics? It's not needed for a science victory. Beeline to Rocketry (build the Apollo project) then beeline to Nanotechnology. Build the parts and win.

That's an interesting sidebar. I usually take Plastics so I can get Research labs, getting that final kick to put me over the line. I really haven't ever done the math on whether it is worth it to take the 2 tech detour in order to get the huge science boost late.

Plus, in this particular game, my 3 big production cities all are on river forks, making the Hydro Plant HUGE for building parts.

 

[joncnunn]

Yes; empires that are wide are rewarded by score, particularly if population of each city is decent and each also has sufficient culture to take in most of the possible workable tiles.

AI plays on the chieftain level happiness bonuses at all difficulty levels.

So unless you go conquering your score is going to be lower than there's during the game.

 

[Karpyan]

Gutted last night, was within 12 turns of a win going tall with Babylon, would have been my first ever win on immortal, when Siam, massive runaway points (and ) leader announces he's built the UN. Darius had 27k gold, but the damn AI made no effort to fight for the CS. Lost around 1898.

 

[diz2]

Gutted last night, was within 12 turns of a win going tall with Babylon, would have been my first ever win on immortal, when Siam, massive runaway points (and ) leader announces he's built the UN. Darius had 27k gold, but the damn AI made no effort to fight for the CS. Lost around 1898.

In most games it seems like one of the AI makes an big effort to ally the CSs and the others do not.

I try to ally CS once I get things rolling, and find that usually one AI civ will make a half hearted effort to take them away, and others just have no interest.

After the UN is built, they usually intensify their efforts to take CS away but never seem to try to take more than 1-2 per turn with a push right before the vote.

One of my cheapest vistory tactics (n games where I am way behind in cash) is allying the last couple CSs needed about 3 turns before the vote and then DOWing the guy who keeps outbidding me so he can't take them back. You may need 1 or 2 extra CSs than the votes needed if you project the guy you just DOWed will conquer a few CS in those 3 turns.

 

[snarzberry]

The score in civ V, as per, is pretty a useless part of the game. It draws from a number of sources and combines them into a vacuous single value and if you want to know about the factors that contribute to score you can get a detailed break down in much greater detail in info addict. Short of it is that unless you're conquering civs then your score is going to be relatively low as you have happiness and growth constraints that the AI doesn't.

 

[Txurce]

That's an interesting sidebar. I usually take Plastics so I can get Research labs, getting that final kick to put me over the line. I really haven't ever done the math on whether it is worth it to take the 2 tech detour in order to get the huge science boost late.

Plus, in this particular game, my 3 big production cities all are on river forks, making the Hydro Plant HUGE for building parts.

It's not worth the detour for the science boost alone. Detouring for Labs and Hydro Plants? That's too hard to estimate without knowing your tech rate, even if you can build or buy both without postponing SS parts completion to do so. If you have the save, consider reloading and trying it the other way.

 

[RedRover57]

Science basically becomes worthless once you have Rocketry, because the last techs needed for the spaceship parts can be obtained from a combination of final few RA's, Rationalism policy (2 free techs), Oxford free tech (if you didn't build it earlier) and GS (I usually save up 6-7 for the final push). Once I start building the Apollo Program I have my cities on full production focus and I pull my science specialists out. As long as your cities can build spaceship parts in about 5-7 turns each you should be fine. This shouldn't be a problem even without hydro plants.

 

[tarsier]

i wish they'd fix the AI.

"YES I'M GETTING BETTER AT THIS GAME... oh wait, no, i'm just getting better at learning exploits to beat the feeble AI."