Immortal Shadow Game: Cyrus

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I need help. I have played this map over 20 times, and have even studied how a deity-level player attacked it, but I still can't seem to beat it. Admittedly, most of those attempts were abandoned after 100 turns because I wasn't hitting specific milestones, but it's still a lot of effort banging my head against a wall.

As I play through here, I am hoping to get some advice not only on what to do with my workers and cities at every point, but also, why those actions are the best available to me and how they contribute to achieving a winning position. I don't just want to beat this map, I want to learn the skills that will allow me to beat any similar map.

To that end, I welcome and appreciate all constructive input.

The Game...
Leader: Cyrus of Persia
Difficulty: Immortal
Settings: No Tech Trading, Events On, Standard size, Normal speed, Cold climate, High sea level

As I mentioned, I have lots of knowledge about this map. For this particular game, I don't care that I'm using that knowledge. I'm also fine with backtracking a bit if it helps me to learn better. I'll worry about winning properly another time. Right now, gaining understanding is the victory.

Spoiler The Start :

Not too much to discuss here, I think. Settling in place is fine.

About the map and previous attempts (heavy spoilers):

Spoiler Strategy :

So, we share a continent with Gandhi. My usual strategy is to steal an early worker, peace for a bit, then kill him by T50, picking up a couple more workers and (except when he does crazy stuff) 2 decent cities. Immortals smash hard, but if I delay until he gets his Iron hooked up, his spearmen counter them convincingly, so obviously I can't let that happen.

Whilst ramping up for that skirmish, I also want to aim my tech and tile improvements towards obtaining the Pyramids and the GLH by T75, with the Mausoleum and Great Library to follow. In some games I was able to pick up Stonehenge (if the AI neglected it), and in others, the GLH went as early as T62. Both of those were outliers though, so we'll see how we go.

The tech path that seems to work best is AH -> Wheel -> Mining -> BW -> Pottery -> Mysticism after which I need Masonry (to help with the Mids) and Sailing (for GLH). Then it's off towards Literature for the GL.

Let's go.

 

[sampsa]

If you can get Mids+GLH the game is just an autowin on immortal. I think you probably don't manage your empire very well, focusing on the wrong things (usually means too many buildings and working weak tiles).

 

[sampsa]

How big are your cities say 1AD? In general you should have several cities past size 10.

 

[Whisker]

Checking the save file, you have 'no tech trades' turned on.
If this is your favored setting, so be it, just be aware that most here play with trades allowed and this will affect the advice you get.
Another thing is you play with random events and villages on. This can drastically affect the flow of the game. Again most here play with those option turned off.
I'm personally in minority and play with random events, as I like the variety provided. I don't like villages as getting a tech can ruin some of the bulp paths I like to take. Playing with either is fine, but for learning purposes it might be better to turn them off. Once you know how to not get your economy wrecked without gold infusion from huts turn them back on and have fun.

You said you have prior map knowledge, so you already know if that is an issue, but normally before settling in place you should use your scout to check you're not ruining any sea food that might be available on coast west of your settler.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

If you can get Mids+GLH the game is just an autowin on immortal.

I've been told this repeatedly. I still fail. I question my worth as a human being because of it. But for some reason, I persist. I would like to understand how and why others can achieve it so easily.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Checking the save file, you have 'no tech trades' turned on.
If this is your favored setting, so be it, just be aware that most here play with trades allowed and this will affect the advice you get.
Another thing is you play with random events and villages on. This can drastically affect the flow of the game. Again most here play with those option turned off.
I'm personally in minority and play with random events, as I like the variety provided. I don't like villages as getting a tech can ruin some of the bulp paths I like to take. Playing with either is fine, but for learning purposes it might be better to turn them off. Once you know how to not get your economy wrecked without gold infusion from huts turn them back on and have fun.

You said you have prior map knowledge, so you already know if that is an issue, but normally before settling in place you should use your scout to check you're not ruining any sea food that might be available on coast west of your settler.

Yeah. I usually play with tech trading on and events and huts off. This map was provided to me, and for some reason I've decided that this is the hill that I'm going to die on. Either I beat this map or I give up the game for good.

I understand that those settings will affect decisions in ways that might not be applicable to other games. Right now, I just want to focus on optimising worker and city management in a semi-isolated position. I'll deal with diplomacy another time (or later in the game, if I get that far).

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

12 Turns in. Worker finished and sent to build a camp on the deer. Warrior started. AH finished, and horses found. The plan is to finish the warrior, put 2 turns into barracks (to hit size 2), then switch to settler. The worker will go from the deer to pasture the sheep, then road towards the second city to save a turn for the settler (and because it doesn't have much else to do until mining).

The first real question is, where does the Horse city go?

Spoiler Turn 12 :

The plains hill marked looks good. I have also tried the riverside grass 1W of that (less production initially, but gets sheep in the first ring). Both cities can share Delhi's rice later.

Thoughts?

 

[Fippy]

PH isn't worth delaying the big tile by ~20 turns, imo.

Overall you shouldn't pressure yourself with turn dates & wonders..
sure pick them up if you can, but just building a solid river cottage economy also works here.

 

[Whisker]

Playing contrarian here. If you build 2 settlers in capital immediately at size 2 you can have them out in 7 and 6 turns respectively. In that case you could still settle the horse city to PH and your third city 3 west from there to secure the lambs. The horse city can stay small and pump out immortals and workers. If you could somehow secure the spot SE of horses it would be great, but India is almost certain to get there first.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Playing contrarian here. If you build 2 settlers in capital immediately at size 2 you can have them out in 7 and 6 turns respectively. In that case you could still settle the horse city to PH and your third city 3 west from there to secure the lambs.

I never would have thought of that. It feels like it would delay the rush too long. See, now I have to try it in a side game to see how it goes.

If you could somehow secure the spot SE of horses it would be great, but India is almost certain to get there first.

Yeah. 90% of the time his second city goes 1N of the stone. It's actually quite a nice spot when I take it off him.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

If you build 2 settlers in capital immediately at size 2 you can have them out in 7 and 6 turns respectively.

I'd love to know how. The best I can do is 8 turns each. Even with the Imperialistic bonus, I only get 13 food hammers per turn, regardless of whether I work the sheep or an unimproved forest plains hill.

Edit: I might be able to squeeze one more food hammer if I go mining before Wheel, but then my worker is sitting with nothing to do for a while.

 

[Whisker]

I can't repeat it, even with overflow from warrior. I must have checked the build queue with some turns already in for the settler.

 

[antimony]

I think your initial plan is good, with city 2 on the forest rather than PH to get sheep in range (also for that spot I don't think you can settle faster with roads, but you're right there isn't anything better to do). EDIT: Agree with @sampsa below on location of city 2 to save a turn and forest, also will share more cottages with capital.

Once you commit to immortal rush only focus on that... I wouldn't build another settler until you're sure you have enough troops to take Gandhi's capital and city 2. Maybe a worker after first settler is done to mine in capital (and eventually help chop) while first worker still improves city 2. I'm not sure finishing barracks is better than a worker here, and it takes more turns I think. Also, if you don't finish the barracks, maybe putting those 2 turns into a warrior and completing it after settler would have worked too.

Worker should finish around when horses are connected, then it's only immortals in both cities, and declare with 6 immortals maybe?

I assume you're going Mining and Bronze Working after The Wheel? Then Pottery with possibly Fishing before? We can consider the situation after BW.

As a sidenote, it's a reasonable guess around turn 12 that you're isolated with Gandhi. In that case it's not always a good call on high difficulty levels to eliminate the only AI you can contact, especially a peaceful one. This map is somewhat particular though because how good his land (especially the floodplains he will expand towards) is relative to the rest of the island. Otherwise, you could use IMP to expand faster than him and just take advantage of the tech trading potential.

 

[sampsa]

I would not consider any other 2nd city than 1W of the horse. I don't think there is much upside going 1SW of the horse and it loses a turn and a forest.

I would not consider a 3rd city if the plan is to attack with immortals. The AI is not a unit spammer so I'd just go as early as possible with say 8 non-barracked immortals.

 

[sampsa]

T33

Spoiler :

Settler at size 2, then 2nd worker, warrior decays a bit which doesn't matter. Zero towards useless barracks. The sheep road helped 2nd worker to reach horsie in time so can start the pump now.

It's a super strong start I think, you'll have 4-5 cities and a religion quickly. Of course beyond that the land quality is a bit poor, but GLH+Mids makes land quality less important.

 

[sampsa]

T53

Spoiler :

T40 the production is already great, even those generally yucky plains hill mines contribute nicely. Now chopping some.

T53 India is gone. Was massively unlucky and many of my 22% attacks didn't even scratch his top defender, so I managed to lose seven(!!) of my ten immortals. The initial attack force was 8 immortals. Captured two workers, no buildings.

Have two granaries and I have three workers building strawberry fields to the capital green river area. It's very important to get those running asap! I'll switch to slavery now and whip two settlers in new cities. I'll be working a lot of cottages soon so the economy can easily support six cities.

Mids in capital and GLH in Delhi seems clear. Very interested in that marble island of course.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I would not consider any other 2nd city than 1W of the horse. I don't think there is much upside going 1SW of the horse and it loses a turn and a forest.

That was my first instinct, and where I settled in the first few games I played. If you're willing to share it, I'd love to understand the rationale of that spot. It seems to me that the equation is:
1W of Horses = 1 turn earlier + shares tiles with capital + sheep in first ring
vs
1SW of Horses = Shares Rice with Delhi (long term) + loses a forest + takes an extra turn to settle
vs
PH = Shares rice with Delhi + shares sheep with Bombay + takes an extra turn to settle + 2 settle + low food until border pop (or Bombay captured and out of revolt)

Are there other factors I'm missing? What makes each of those factors compelling to you? I understand that others may have differing views and I'd be interested to hear opinions from anyone who plays (and wins) at Immortal or above.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

T33

Spoiler :

Settler at size 2, then 2nd worker, warrior decays a bit which doesn't matter. Zero towards useless barracks. The sheep road helped 2nd worker to reach horsie in time so can start the pump now.

It looks like you irrigated 1SE of capital after pasturing the sheep. Is that right? I usually road towards the 2nd city site, which saves a turn on the settle. Do you find the farm gets used enough to justify it, or was it more about keeping the worker busy until you got the second city up?

Also, if I'm able to steal a worker around the same time as the settler finishes (~T25), should I still build another worker? I mean, it will certainly come in handy later, but won't have much to do except road until BW around T40.

 

[sampsa]

That was my first instinct, and where I settled in the first few games I played. If you're willing to share it, I'd love to understand the rationale of that spot. It seems to me that the equation is:
1W of Horses = 1 turn earlier + shares tiles with capital + sheep in first ring
vs
1SW of Horses = Shares Rice with Delhi (long term) + loses a forest + takes an extra turn to settle
vs
PH = Shares rice with Delhi + shares sheep with Bombay + takes an extra turn to settle + 2 settle + low food until border pop (or Bombay captured and out of revolt)

Are there other factors I'm missing? What makes each of those factors compelling to you? I understand that others may have differing views and I'd be interested to hear opinions from anyone who plays (and wins) at Immortal or above.

In general, short term gains are better than long term gains. 1W immediately claims the strong tiles and doesn't lose 20 on the forest and settles 1T faster which wins quite a lot too imo, maybe 8 or so.

The only negative is no sharing with your future cities. I mean sure, later you would love to share that food but you can also found a city south of Delhi. I wouldn't value -sharing over very early ~28 anyway.

Anyway, I think it's a rather minor decision and doesn't affect your chances to win the game really.

 

[sampsa]

It looks like you irrigated 1SE of capital after pasturing the sheep. Is that right? I usually road towards the 2nd city site, which saves a turn on the settle. Do you find the farm gets used enough to justify it, or was it more about keeping the worker busy until you got the second city up?

Yes, farming was more laziness than anything else as I didn't bother to calculate whether the road allows to settle 1T faster. If it does, it's probably a bit better than a farm that you can use later. If it doesn't settle 1T faster, it's a LOT worse than the farm.

Also, if I'm able to steal a worker around the same time as the settler finishes (~T25), should I still build another worker? I mean, it will certainly come in handy later, but won't have much to do except road until BW around T40.

I'm not sure if the worker steal is that great. It makes him build archers during that war, but ok, you also win quite many worker turns. You can farm green grass at least.