Immortal Students, Re-examination !

Takesitez

Chieftain
Joined
Jun 12, 2016
Messages
39
So, since Noble's club is being revived, I figured I'd post a nice, fun, yet semi- challenging game intended for those of us that feel they still need to work on their game a bit before hitting Deity, or those that want to take advantage of the wealth of information present on these forums in order to achieve their first Immortal victory.

I'm hoping there is enough interest for it, this map wasn't cooked, although I did choose the starting AI's. No place for weaklings in this world !

I call this a re-examination since when I first played the map myself, I almost got my arse kicked :lol: I'm not going to go into the details; but here's a spoiler:

Spoiler :
1 very unlikely AI had +- 2000BC alphabet (on Immortal that's pretty amazing) and another decided to declare on me a few turns after going WHEORN in the last millenium BC, basically catching me with my pants down)

That said, the map is in no way unfair, but would probably be pretty challenging on Deity, and a good romp on Immortal I'm sure !

Here is the leader :

Spoiler :
Sul1.jpg

A plenty strong leader with very good starting techs, an impressive UB and a really nice hat ! There's almost nothing you can't do with this dude. He's just got it all !

And here is the start !

Spoiler :
Sul2.jpg

Can't complain about this now can you ? ;)


Map is Pangea, No Huts, No Events.

I've added a worldbuilder save:

Don't forget to add the appropriate Barbarian starting techs for your difficulty level in the worldbuilder.

Also, this is the first time I've made a worldbuilder save, so if there's any hiccups make sure to tell me :D
 

Attachments

I'll give it a go when i have some time. I haven't played a game in forever.
 
Don't forget using blue marble guys, much more eye friendly than default graphics.
Works together with BUG, Buffy and so on and you can still load or upload all savegames as normal.
 
Added a worldbuilder save, so anyone can play it on any difficulty.

Also, this is the first time I've made a worldbuilder save, so if there's any hiccups make sure to tell me :)
 
I'm a little past 1 AD - I'll try to post an update later. I think this would be a tough map on Deity, but that could vary quite a bit depending on how the diplo shakes out.
 
Immortal 1250 Conquest

Spoiler :

Did the old Engineering bulb thing. Got it somewhere around 200-250BC. Genghis declared on me early on but as soon as i saw him plotting i knew i was his only target. He didn't seem to have any Keshiks so i built some axes and was able to repel him rather easily. I also had to DoW Hannibal and raze a couple cities so that i could regain control of my iron tile to the north. Catherine declared on me right after that (it was one of those games), but i was pretty much ready to go all out war at that point.

Basically just rolled the map with Engineering units at that point with some Knights and eventually Janissaries thrown in later. Conquest order was Catherine > Pacal > Mehmed > two front war with Genghis and Hannibal > 1T war with Capac.

I think i only generated 3 great people the entire game. I bulbed Machinery, Engineering, and Paper with them. Really wanted Paper after Engineering for the map reveal so i wasn't warring blind. Anyway, i was really lazy once i got those techs and pretty much quit trying to research or micro my cities too much. Keeping a GP farm up for some golden ages probably would've been smart.

I do have quite a few pictures and i might update this with a better write up, but I'm feeling pretty lazy atm.

Civ4ScreenShot0005_zpscenajz3r.jpg

 
I have some time now, so here is the full write up of my game. I'm gonna try to make this some-what detailed and imformative for newer players. I'm certainly not the best player around here, but i do know enough that others may be able to take something away from this.

Part 1:

Spoiler :

First thing of note is that the starting warrior in the regular immortal save is in the location shown in the picture in the OP, but in the other save it is not in the same location which could potentially influence the opening. I remember reading about how to edit WB saves to avoid the teleporting starting units, but that's been so long now that i can't remember.

The only move i was considering at all was 1S onto the suspicious unforested tile. I suspected this was a resource so i didn't really want to do that unless the warrior revealed something really nice to the south. I moved him 1S onto the PH which revealed corn to the south and pigs to the SE, but not close enough to get with the capitol. Later cities perhaps. I SIP, started a worker, and picked Hunting as the first tech since the Corn and the Ivory are the only tiles that can be improved without BW here. Techs after Hunting were Mining > BW.

It was evident really early that the map would be cramped as i made contact with 3 other civs by T5, and all 6 by T12. This typically means two things. 1) Barbs likely won't be much of an issue, and 2) need to grab the good city spots as quickly as possible.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0001_zpsvvnlla0i.jpg


I finished BW on T28 and had a nice 2nd city spot picked out with pigs, copper, a FP, and shared ivory with capitol. Next tech will be AH for the pigs and there are also a couple of potential grass cow city sites available. Since i have Ag and Hunting i get a 20% research bonus on AH which is nice too.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0002_zpsaywyx44w.jpg


Turn 39 i have my 2nd settler due in 1T and I'm eyeing a grass cow gems site to the NW that will help block Hannibal a little bit. There are horses there too, but in a bit of an awkward spot. I'd have to settle them 2nd ring and i would be settling slightly further away than i really want to. Also no guarantee that Hannibal wouldn't steal them. I don't think horses are really necessary with copper and ivory so i pass. Planned city location is 1NW of the cows. Also started a warrior in Bursa which will become a spear as soon as copper is connected. Emergency barb defense or something...
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0003_zps8ldfw9e7.jpg


I very narrowly beat Hannibal to the spot. Even if i had wanted to go for the horses it would've been too risky at this point. Also teching Pottery with Writing likely to follow.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0004_zpsbx7sqyml.jpg


T47 I'm trying to consolidate a little bit before settling another city or two. Konya started a worker at S1 since it only has the cow tile for now and growing wouldn't be as beneficial as getting a 3rd worker. Axe and spear are almost ready in case i need them. Teching towards Writing which is always an important tech for Philo civs.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0005_zpscdgl0e7j.jpg


T63 I've settled the corn + fish site to the south although i may not have Fishing for quite awhile if i pursue the Engineering bulb strategy. For anyone not particularly familiar with this strat, you need a leader that doesn't start with Fishing (and then avoid tech or trading for it obviously) as this will prevent your great scientists from bulbing the entire Sailing > Calendar > Compass > Optics line. You still need to tech or trade for Alpha, Math, and Aesthetics, but once you have those the MC > Machinery > Engineering line is open to GS bulbs. A GS will fully bulb Machinery and will likely get you around 1T from Engineering depending on the pop of your empire, difficulty level and such. It's possible it might bulb it outright on lower levels.

Anyway, I'm working on a couple of libraries and planning to use Gazianterp to help grow some cottages for the time being. I've settled my 5th city to the east to grab corn + gems. Also kind of unfortunate that the potential pigs + horses + gold site to the NE got a barb city. I had a spear in the area for quite some time, but i was guarding my 5th city site and didn't get quite far enough out to prevent the barb city up there. If one really wanted that city site it would've absolutely been possible to prevent the barb city there and grab it.

At this point in the game i was also having a hard time deciding what to tech. Do i go for Math > Construction for elepult or do i go for the Engineering bulb strat? If i do go for that strat should i try to trade for Alpha or just tech it myself since i kinda need to know where the iron is as soon as possible and i also have 2 nice gems with jungle on them I'd like to get online. Trebs are great and all, but I'd much rather have xbows + trebs than axes + trebs.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0006_zpsd3mehdpb.jpg


T76 and Genghis is plotting war. I haven't done a ton of exploration yet so I'm operating under the assumption that he's on a bit of a peninsula over there and I'm his only land target. I have to assume he's plotting on me. I open and close the dialogue with him a few times until i see "Fear my Swordsman!" I may be mistaken, but my interpretation of this was that he didn't have Keshiks and i also hadn't seen a Keshik yet, so i started building some axes to prepare for the impending DOW.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0007_zpslbtqppm2.jpg


It came shortly after that, but his stack wasn't very impressive with just 2 swords, 2 axes, and 2 spears. I had 5 axes and a warrior in my hilled capitol and he was actually afraid to attack it and kept moving back and forth. I finally moved 1 axe out and he suicided everything. The hammers i have in the spear in the capitol were basically a mistake. I put a turn into the spear when i first saw him plotting assuming he would have keshiks and it wasn't until the next turn i thought to check dialogue with him to see what he really had.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0009_zps7pehu2ga.jpg


Also you could see in the previous screenie that i was teching Math. I decided to kind of hedge my bets and go for Math as that would allow the Elepult rush or maybe a trade for Alpha if i got lucky which would put me on a pretty good path for the Engineering bulb. Eventually i did get the Alpha trade with Cathy and that also allowed me to pick up IW shortly thereafter. Iron turned out to be accessible to the north, but very close to Hannibal.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0010_zpshbtwe4ka.jpg

Civ4ScreenShot0011_zpsrysg7qfh.jpg


I got Machinery in 375 BC and settled the iron city in 250 BC 1N of the iron. I made at least 1 mistake here, probably two. I should've had the iron settled earlier so i could start on xbows immediately, and i probably should've just settled directly on the iron to provide the resource faster and also remove the chance of revolt in that city. Grass iron is a nice tile, but the benefits of working it would've been outweighed by the benefits settling directly on the iron would've provided in the meta game.
Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0012_zps4c0by9z1.jpg



I don't remember if i actually teched HBR next. I was thinking about doing it to get some phants going. Pretty sure i only had 1 scientist in Bursa there briefly too which is why it looked like 12T for Engineering when it was actually about 6T.

Edit: Had to go back and find a save game to see what was going on as it's been too long since i played the game to remember. I already had 2 GS from Istanbul and the one in Bursa was the 3rd that i would use later. HBR was just a placeholder, i didn't actually get it until later. I was waiting to finish Construction before i could bulb Engineering. I think i delayed to see if i might be able to pick it up in a trade at some point, but i was not. I ended up self-teching just about everything in this game.

Anyway, part 2 when i have some more time.
 
Very true! Whenever I see a lot of great land, it gets settled very fast by those nearby AIs.

And if no AIs are nearby, then the barb wave is inevitable...and by the time they are repelled, the AIs HAVE come nearby.

It's still a lot of fun!

Thanks for the detailed writeup Izuul, it really helps to see all those decisions explained.
 
This one is very very tough on Deity.

Spoiler :
I got DOW from two AIs (Catherine and Genghis) practically at the same time around 550BC.

I didn't take religion, I didn't settle too greedy, even wasn't a decent land target at that time, but peaceweights of these AIs make them love each others so much that they all end up liking you the least.

Spoiler :
1lQsT7q.jpg


First I lost two cities at the very beginning of war, but, fortunately I was just preparing elepult at that time and managed to retake them. Buildings were razed. :mad:

Repelling Genghis was easy, as he had only melee units while I had Axes, walls and culture defense in capital. GK lost much more and we made peace and units from capital joined fighting Russia.

On wings of military success against Russia, I built a city to gift so that I would have something to trade for peace as I was very backward. It worked.:crazyeye: Imperialistic makes these gifts so much cheaper.

Then, finally some luck struck and GK declared on Hannibal. I joined and piggybacked taking 4 cities from GK and settled one more for a total of 11 cities.

Spoiler :
mjNyiKs.jpg


Spoiler :
u0DY28O.jpg


Spoiler :
N55Kti9.jpg


I lost 30 units in wars, but killed 80.

Now I am of decent size but very backward while AIs trade like crazy. Don't have CS yet and bpt is disappointing. This is something I haven't experienced since playing on Emperor...

Spoiler :
NcX07nY.jpg


Spoiler :
xvJUGzL.jpg


Tried getting Music as quasi monopoly to get back into the game, but when I crawled there everyone had it. :lol::cry:

The only hope for military victory is Jannisary + Cannons but I have to get there in reasonable time. Having luck with monopolies should prove essential for this game. GPPs were neglected as every unit mattered and Philo didn't play an important role in this game. Yet.
 
@shaka

Spoiler :
I would have ragequit your game a long, long time ago. Now i want to see if you can pull it out... Good Luck!!
 
@Izuul

Wow, impressive win date with slowlings!:goodjob:
And high quality write-up for others to learn.

I don't remember how to bulb Engineering any more. Skip fishing?
 
@Shaka
Spoiler :

Yeah, i got the impression from my immortal game that this map would be very challenging on deity. Maybe if Catherine focused on Pacal early things would play out in a bit more favorable fashion, but it is tough when you have a bunch of warmongers that all like each other. I'm sure you were much more squeezed by the AI too. I think it's possible for Catherine to settle the copper site on deity before the player can even get a settler out.

Anyway, you've done remarkably well considering the circumstances. The AI are definitely ahead, but maybe not hopelessly so. If you can deal Music to Capac for most of CS then you might get the economy going a bit with Bureau plus getting the old Mongolian cities going. Also have Philo great scientists to bulb your way back into things.

Uphill battle, but cannons can do amazing things. In my experience they are viable at least until the AI get infantry. Gotta survive that long first though :)

Regarding the Engineering bulb strat... yeah you need to not start with Fishing because Fishing will open up the entire Sailing > Calendar > Compass > Optics line to GS bulbs which is obviously not good. Philo of course is a huge boost since you really need at least 2 GS. That leaves just Frederick, Gandhi, Sulie, and Peter with the ideal characteristics. Of those 4, Sulie clearly has the best starting techs, although Gandhi with the fast worker is never a bad choice.
 
@Izuul

Spoiler :
Yeah, if Catherine went elswhere, I would backstab her with full army and take 3-4 most important cities from her, that'd make for far easier game. AI's did squeeze me but I did manage to get 5 cities with help from chops and IMP. I got copper as my second city quite early, I don't think I could have lost it.

Before I was attacked, it was really a normal game. Maybe it is possible not to have Catherine DoW.

I played a bit more and am actually at a really good spot with military pre-production from 10 cities. Pre-production because trebs will be upgraded. Even have Defensive pact with Catherine.
Now I just need to figure out the order in which to attack people as they all pretty much love each other and there is a possibility that I end up fighting 3 strongest AIs at once.


Thanks for bulbing tips!
 
Gave this a try on Emperor (my normal level of play).
Spoiler :

Effing insane! I moved SE and picked up a 2nd corn. Started pottery tech with hopes of building mids, and conquering neighbors with Elephants. As a result, did not see the nearby copper in time - Cathy took that from me.

Blah blah blah.

And then, bloody Genghis is WHOOUH and has Alphabet. WTH?

A few turns later, I'm DOWed by 3 AIs.

Um.... yeah.
 
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