Immortal University 92 - Justinian

[Dubioza]

1400 AD

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Pacal attacked my stack with LB's probably out of C. Pizza, so I hurried, captured it and went for C. Pizza. Research: Engineering - Edu. Got GScientist - I still don't have academy, and I decided not to build it. I need bulbs. I was right, C. Pizza is poorly defended! I had no problem taking it, giving some of my cats 10th xp.

2 turns later I got GEngineer (could bulb 1332 to guilds - but he waits for now at least for Edu to finish) and I saw both Mehmed and Sally were stacking at my borders (Sally was plotting as well), so I decided to switch to Theoc & Vass (their fav. civics) and to convert to hindu. That got me to pleased (+7) with them so I continued toward Mutal and captured it few turns later (MoM!). I didn't want to cap him cause he had bad relations with those 2, but he captured barb city way down south, so to kill him would take a lot more turns. So I capped him and sent my units on my southern borders just in case.

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In 1080 AD Edu finished, so I bulbed Guilds with GEng. (now 1406) and PPress with GSci. (2109), upped the slider and finish those 2 each in one turn. After that, researched Lib 1 turn to go, cause Sally was getting close. Settled Nicomedia in 1140 AD and got GProphet. I don't know if I had to, but I waited Mutal with MoM to get online to start 12 turn GAge. Traded Guilds for Compass with Pacal and told him to research Banking while I researched Nationalism (cause Sally was researching it too).

In 1170 AD got another GSci, and turn later I started GAge with GProphet. In 1190 I settled Angora and traded Guilds with Sally and Freddy and Compass with Mehmed for some cash. That got me to friendly with Sally.

Finished Nat, started on Taj and researched GPowder. Then I could bulb Chem, so I did. Demanded Optics from Freddy, just for fun and he gave in. Finished Lib in 1260 AD - took Steel and researched MT. Traded GPowder with Pacal for Banking and researched Econ (before MT finished). Send GMerchant on TMission. GAge finished, and I got another GEng. He could bulb RParts, but he waits for options.

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Got 1500 from TMission (shift-TMission showed it'd be 1700, I guess some parameters changed) and I upgraded 20 cats&trebs. And well, I was friendly with Sally, so I'm gonna attack Mehmed. I can't just sit with all those cannons. His stack is still where it was, so it's convenient as well.

in 1340 I got GSci. and I sent GEng. to Persepolis as well - I might use him for some WW there (NE). In 1380 Taj finally finished (20 turns or so!). Sally started GAge as well. Now when I was about to attack Mehmed I don't have to be in Vass. anymore, so I switched to FSpeech and FMarket.

Traded Optics with Sally for some cash, declared and got in position. While defending he lost quite a few his units and didn't kill one mine LOL Power ratio jumped from 1.6 to 1.8 just with that. This is gonna be easy. Captured Kayseri and Konya (with smaller stack) while researching Const - Corp.

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When finally HC's cities got running (2 shrines + 1 Pacal's and few cottaged cities) I finally have good commerce. I spread hindu in most of my main cities, so now I can be in it just as I would be in budd.

Looks like this is going to be another Domination

 

[Smilingrogue]

Won this on the second try. Immortal, Normal Speed, No Huts, No Events, Domination 1812 AD. I am disappointed, I wanted to win Conquest instead.

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I settled 1 East of the Cow for a bunch of riverside greenery. It's a solid spot for a Bureaucracy powered capital. Nothing bad happened this time and I didn't settle too ambitiously as I didn't want to tick Cyrus or Mehmed off early and get declared upon again.

The most interesting thing that happened in the BCs was Huayna Capac built the Oracle in 1200 BC and took Theology with it.

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I have never seen an AI use that slingshot before, but I am barely getting started on Immortal, so maybe that's not all that rare on higher difficulties.

Won Music race in 25 AD and picked up the Great Artist. He started a Golden Age in 740 AD after I prepped my National Epic spot.

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Difficult to get the NE built without marble, but I abused whip overflow to get it done. Spawned two Great Scientists and two Great Merchants. I used the two GSs to part bulb Education and Liberalism. Took Military Tradition in 1000 AD.

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I kept Cyrus occupied by bribing Mehmed on him in 640 AD.

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They both stopped fighting by 1100 AD, but my GMs net me enough gold to upgrade twenty Horse Archers to Cuirassiers. I split them into two groups of ten each, declared war on Cyrus in 1110 AD and attacked him from North and South simultaneously.

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He gave me a whole bunch of techs and capitulated in 1270 AD.

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At this point, HC was just teching away like a mad man. I had to stop him and he was the next logical target for my Cuirs which made it all the way to the Eastern border of Persia. I had to tie up Saladin though so I tasked Mehmed to keep him busy.

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Declared on HC in 1280 AD.

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He brought Pacal in.

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Pacal got badly boxed in and had only four cities. If I remember right, he doesn't even have metal. So I ignored him and simply pounded on HC who despite teching well built very little military.
I capitulated him in 1430 AD.

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He only had one city but he had techs I wanted which he wouldn't give up for peace, so he got to live.

Mehmed was still occupied with Saladin and his peace Vassal Frederick at this point. So I wheeled around and hit him.

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He capitulated in 1540 AD

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I had stopped teching altogether since the start of the Persian war and I was very backwards at this stage

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But Pacal was a four city weakling with no metal. So he was next on the chopping block.

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I was now in a bit of trouble. Saladin was certainly going to be a harder nut to crack than the others due to being protective. So I decided to bring my crashed and burnt economy back on rails and tech to at least Cannons and Riflemen. I finished teching what I needed and started building Cannons and Rifles in my cities when Saladin decided he doesn't like me and declared war.

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He didn't have rifling yet and the war went horribly for him as I burnt a couple of cities soon after the start of hostilities.

Frederick saw the futility of taking on me and my vassals and decided to join the winning coalition.

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Saladin won't cap though. The AI did something stupid and built a tonne of Destroyers. It had something like 15 Destroyers in an iceball with only a three tile ocean access. They were all trapped in that little 'sea'. But this kept Saladin's power rating very high and he kept telling me he's doing fine on his own so he won't capitulate despite getting knocked down to two cities. On my way to beat up the last two cities I tripped the Domination limit and won in 1812 AD

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Final demographics:

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Score:

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Thanks a lot for the map, Klonoklown.

Edit:

@ Cseanny.

I no longer have those saves. The pre-1000 BC DoW was in NC Elizabeth where

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Isabella

showed up on my doorstep with two chariots, 1 axe, 1 spear and an archer while I had nothing but warriors still.

I generally only use autosaves and they get overwritten. I lose a lot of games' progress that way but I am too stubborn to learn.
About the early DOW

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While Cyrus won't declare at Pleased, the way the map rolled, we are going to be the most likely target for any war rolls for him as he will be pleased with the other two neighbours due to peace weights I guess. I wasn't in Police State as I didn't think of it. I got Iron far too late and got luck to get even that as Izuul and others seem to have missed it on this map. I was panicking as I knew Chariots won't hold the front. Live and learn I guess.

@ Dubioza

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You are in an excellent position! Don't worry about falling behind in tech. As long as you are eliminating rivals and bringing land under your control, you will come out on top. As for getting courthouses set up during war time, whip overflow is your friend. A catapult costs 50 hammers. If you invest 19 hammers or less in it, it will take a two population whip to finish. Let's assume a perfect scenario where you can invest 19 hammers, you whip two pop and generate 60 hammers. Catapult still needs 31 hammers to finish. 60-31=29. That 29 hammers can now be put into a courthouse for one turn and the queue changed back to a catapult or whatever other units you want. Needless to say, forge and trait bonuses tends to influence the hammers needed to completion, overflow amount, etc. BUG mod helps you figure it out with ease though as Sisiutil points out here.

As for the current situation you are in, tech Engineering, build trebuchets, Maces, Crossbows, Elephants. Kill them all!

 

[Dubioza]

1540 AD Domination Victory!

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Mehmed was no match to cannons, let alone to cannons + cuirs. Overkill in all fights

At the end I killed him and kept all of his cities. During a war I had culture slider at 20% and was building culture in cities bordering with Freddy & Sally. Was forced to go into Emancipation cause Sally switched.

Still had 2 cities to get out of revolution when I got close to dom limit, so I upped culture slider to 50% to finish quicker. I knew I'm gonna be close to dom limit, in case I wouldn't get it, I sent my units toward Freddy & Sally as soon as I killed Mehmed.

I hurried S. of Liberty and Kremlin in Persepolis and started 3rd GAge with GSpy from Communism and GMerchant I got few turns earlier. Those are main things worth mentioning

Some end game screens:

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Thanks for hard, but interesting map!

Good game all!

 

[cseanny]

Good game Dubioza and well played!! Cannon and Cuirs almost seems a bit unfair, lol. It's like cheating huh?

 

[Dubioza]

LOL It was one time thing, that cheating! Was prepared for 2nd one, but didn't have to do it. You want me to restart?

Yeah, I could've use anything really with cannons, cataphracts & cuirs were convenient due to 2 mov. point..

 

[rfcfanatic]

Prince/Normal, 1110 AD

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Opened with Agri - AH - Masonry - Mining - Fishing - BW - Pottery - Sailing - Writing - Alphabet - Currency - CoL - IW - Hunting - Archery - Horseback Riding

Built these early wonders: Stonehenge, The Great Wall, The Pyramids, The Great Lighthouse, The Great Library, Statue of Zeus. Not-so-early wonder was Notre Dame which a Great Engineer helped to build in 890 AD.

The layout of my first 4 cities:

Thessalonica was the 2nd city, Adrianople the 3rd and Nicaea the 4th. Settled all of them by 1400 BC. I would have gone for Gems and Ivory if there were food nearby. But there weren't. The lack of happiness resources motivated me to go for Pyramids so I could increase the happiness by running Representation. I used to run 2 Scientist specialists in Constantinople until the completion of TGL freed these citizens up to work mines.

When I got Horseback Riding in 75 BC I started to prepare an invasion to Persia. I already scouted their territory but... I got intercepted by Mehmed of Turkey. He DoW'ed on me. The fight was pretty frustrating. I hadn't scouted his lands and he had Iron resource far in the tundra which I found when he was already about to die after a long frustrating struggle. Finally, in 1110 AD Mehmed got wiped out.

Now there are basically 2 choices: to build up my newly-acquired territories or to try to stomp Cyrus with Cataphracts. I like the second idea more, because after a successful war I would be able to push my borders closer to my blood enemies Pacal and HC. Only if I could overcome the fear of Longbows

 

[rfcfanatic]

1360 AD

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OK, I decided to do the stomping thing. Cyrus has been wiped out. Amongst other things, I finally got rid of that annoying Persian exclave - a former Barbarian city of Yayoi.

Now it's even a tougher decision to make. My econoy is in a bad situation, but on the other hand, my military power is almost twice of the Inca. But they have War Elephants, Pikemen and Knights that Cyrus didn't have. I'll try to find the solution.

 

[rfcfanatic]

1545 AD

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Decided to continue the aggressive foreign policy and wiped out the Inca by 1545 AD.

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Cataphracts are pretty good UU Unbelieveable that they can still win the day in 1500s! The RNG trollage was heavy though and I almost came to the point of rage-quitting. Luckily I managed to turn my into a Cataphract whip frenzy.

Despite the economic difficulties, I managed to crawl my way to Liberalism race victory in 1535 AD, 3 turns before Frederick.

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To win the Lib race in 1500s on Prince - I guess that's something that doesn't happen very often. Anyway, I had a choice between Nationalism and PP. I decided to go for Nationalism and start working on Taj Mahal. Among other prizes I captured MoM from the Inca. Already running a 12-turn GA right now. Hopefully the TM will add another 12 turns to it.

It seems that my economy has started a small recovery. Persian and Incan lands seem to have good commerce and I started doing some cottage spam there. Whipping Markets and Grocers in a few cities helped to turn a negative cashflow into positive one. They are much more effective than building Wealth which just robbed many of my productive cities from the possibility to whip Cataphracts. After PP, I'll pick Banking and whip some banking establishments.

I've allied myself with Saladin. We share the same religion and I went to war against the Maya as he asked. Although, when I wanted his help in my war against the Inca, he was in WHEOOHRN mode.

 

[Smilingrogue]

Looking good, rfcfanatic.

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Hard to tell from the screenshots, but it looks like Huayna is way ahead of you in the tech tree. You might want to cripple him and then take him as a vassal so you can trade for his techs later. If all he has on you is a couple techs, simply wipe him out. In my game Maya got horribly boxed in at their tundra start and only had four cities. If that's the case here too, take him out completely. Do take a peace treaty with Saladin (beg for a gold piece) as soon as Maya is willing to capitulate so he won't cap to Saladin. Good luck!

 

[rfcfanatic]

1640 AD Domination victory!

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That was sooner than I expected

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As my economy gained momentum, I was able to skip the Cuirassier era entirely and I went directly for Cavalry. Accumulated some gold, upgraded my Cataphracts to Cavalry and DoW'ed on Frederick. Then I noticed that Frederick was Saladin's vassal so I was at war with Saladin and his second vassal Pacal as well. But even Saladin didn't have anything that would be a threat to my Cavalry. His Power graph started to decline

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Losses among the ranks of Horse Archers and Cataphracts were heavy though. HA losses were high because the DoW from Mehmed caught me completely unprepared. Many Cataphracts were lost in the Incan war due to ridiculous RNG misfortune.

The end score is my best ever on Normal speed

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klonoklown, thanks for the challenging map!

 

[klonoklown]

1640 AD Domination victory!

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That was sooner than I expected

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As my economy gained momentum, I was able to skip the Cuirassier era entirely and I went directly for Cavalry. Accumulated some gold, upgraded my Cataphracts to Cavalry and DoW'ed on Frederick. Then I noticed that Frederick was Saladin's vassal so I was at war with Saladin and his second vassal Pacal as well. But even Saladin didn't have anything that would be a threat to my Cavalry. His Power graph started to decline

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Some statistics about units and buildings:

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Losses among the ranks of Horse Archers and Cataphracts were heavy though. HA losses were high because the DoW from Mehmed caught me completely unprepared. Many Cataphracts were lost in the Incan war due to ridiculous RNG misfortune.

The end score is my best ever on Normal speed

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klonoklown, thanks for the challenging map!

No problem, it seems your skills are improving, good job.

 

[rfcfanatic]

Looking good, rfcfanatic.

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Do take a peace treaty with Saladin (beg for a gold piece) as soon as Maya is willing to capitulate so he won't cap to Saladin. Good luck!

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That's exactly what happened! The capitulation of Pacal to Saladin, I mean So I can make a peace treaty even while being at peace with the AI I want to make the treaty with? I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me this! That would help to prevent these unexpected and annoying caps for sure,

 

[rfcfanatic]

No problem, it seems your skills are improving, good job.

Thanks If I could just stay on the path of aggressive play in early game, then I guess I would have to solidify my positions on Prince difficulty by playing just a couple of more games before I can leave Prince behind and advance to Monarch.

 

[Smilingrogue]

@ rfcfanatic

Congrats on the win!
There are a few ways to stop a Civ you are at war with from vassaling to another Civ. You can get the Civs your target might vassal to war some one else. If not, you can get a peace treaty from the Civs in question by requesting for 1 gold piece or a map info or something they will easily give. (Only works with Pleased or Friendly Civs). Or, you can build your military to the point where you are too powerful for any Civ to take your target as a vassal and risk war with you.

Things get a little complicated when you are fighting a Civ with another Civ also at war with it. You need to bribe the other Civ into peace so it won't cap your target. If you can't call the dogs off, you are generally better off taking the vassal yourself.

 

[Scip]

I think that Justinian is the best Espionage Economy leader. Why? Well, Cataphracts. If you can afford to spy-revolt every enemy city, the Cataphracts' vulnerability to castles and walls is no longer a concern. The AI beelines Engeneering and Guilds anyway, so it's not like you would get there much earlier teching yourself. But you do extend the lifespan of Cataphracts by not tech trading with the AIs. And with that in mind, here we go...

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This was my second attempt at this map, the previous one being a ridiculously fail horse archer rush on Cyrus. Can't really say I remembered anything though, I forgot where the horses were and put 200 espionage points into Maya earlygame thinking he is our neighbor

I settled on top of the stone. Tech order was Agriculture-Mining-AH, I built 2 warriors in my capitol and then build a settler off of corn and 2Ghill mines. The city went 1N of the sugar. I went on to tech Masonry-Pottery-Bronze Working-Fishing. My capitol started building The Great Wall right after settler while my 2nd city made a worker.

What followed was rather boring, I built a bunch of settlers, workers and cottages, with handful of warriors, chariots and farms. I didn't even build an early granary anywhere Here is the one eventful early game thing that I didn't forget to take a screenshot of

Cyrus was so kind as to help my meager military capture the barbarian city just in the spot I planned.
I went on to tech Writing-Alphabet-
DIDN'T TECH ANYTHING AFTERWARDS THIS IS ESPIONAGE ECONOMY
Okay so I kept settling and kept checking whether or not Cyrus went WHEOOHRN mode (because I just now realized that this folder attached to the opening post probably contains world builder saves. Player modless this game though). Fortunately enough, he didn't decide try to DoW anyone, he has a bunch of land to settle into anyway.

Just settled my 8th city and don't plan to settle any further. Alphabet just finished and so first spies are being constructed. Of particular interest is the Iron tile 2S1E of the former Barb city, I whipped all available culture buildings there whenever possible. I managed to avoid wars mostly due to dogpile on poor poor Frederick who was the heatsink for the hotheaded leaders of this map.

The empire management side was rather dull, cottages were built almost everywhere as you get only 1 spy slot in the early and mid game. Most of tech were stolen from Cyrus, a few of them from Huayna Capac, as he was the fastest techer at the time. 2 sample screenshots of tech situation, the first from 100AD, the second from 840AD

Yes, the techpace is atrociously slow, but that is what happens when you just don't trade any techs at all and the AI is left more or less on its own. I am not sure, but I think the AI also invests more into espionage if players around them do, further slowing them down. My espionage spending discount was 33%-40% at this time. Of particular interest is Guilds being researched by the AI . Let's fast forward a few whips.

Cyrus is currently at war with Huayna Capac. Not many fights happened between them, but still, you can save your opinions about what is a 1050AD knights attack on Immortal difficulty later, because this is Espionage Economy baby! Let's see in the spoiler just how it went.

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Only 2 screenshots are necessary

Did you know that Cataphract has more than 50% against everything? As in, everything? Like, there is nothing that counters Cataphracts. Well, except for cities on hills I guess. Cyrus didn't have many of those.

Well, that was brutal. My next target was naturally Huayna Capac, with all his squishy wonders and no army. Or was he?

Apart from my drive to turn history upside down and the challange of taking down Janissaries with Cataphracts, I did have good reasons to do this. Let's look at them.

Cataphracts have about 23% chance against Janissaries if I am not mistaken. But there are few Janissaries and many a Cataphract.

The former German cities Mehmed still has were, hilariously enough, eventually assigned to Huayna Capac by Apostolic Palace and the Ottoman civilization was destroyed.

What followed was rather dull, I decided to steal me some Cavalry and later Airships. As one would expect, AI took ages to tech those but, eventually...

Okay, Cavalry vs. Protective rifles HURTS. It hurts really bad and I don't think I will do it ever again. But hey, I wanted to try

Not a very high score, but hey, Espionage Economy isn't really geared towards early finishes Funnily enough, we ourself researched a grand total of 10 technologies! Marvelous