Immortals and Hyborem

[Gutentag]

The first time I posed this question I didn't really get an answer. I was under the impression that immortals and Hyborem, if killed, would go back to the capital, but be immortal again if not killed on the same turn. As it stands now Hyborem just has to be killed twice and same turn or 100 turns later he just has to lose a battle again to be dead permanently(this isn't theory it happened to me).

In the case of immortals, they don't have the immortal promotion or anything special, so while I haven't had one killed yet, I assume they don't respawn at all. Also I realize the Blood of the Phoenix ritual only gives the immortal promotion once, so it is irrelevant to this discussion.

So my question is did this mechanic get changed at some point, but no one said anything about it, did I miss an announcement, or is it an oversight?
Have version .30g if it matters.

 

[Silverkiss]

As far as I know, only Immortals have to be killed twice in the same turn. Hyborem doesn't get the Immortal promotion back after he loses it, and never did.

 

[Gutentag]

Yeah, I only tested the infernal immortal and it did work how advertised, but why doesn't Hyborem have the same mechanic?

People are always observing that in the majority of games where no one beelined to the infernals, they are weak and essentially a noncontender. Giving Hyborem the same ability to come back unless killed twice in the same turn would help make them a bigger contender without, in my opinion making them an unstoppable juggernaut, just a dangerous one. Also it would make sense to me to have to take out all the infernals to finally get rid of Hyborem because he is so powerfully connected to the infernals. He also seems like a pretty determined guy, and finally what else is he gonna do(I bet they don't have scrabble in hell.) but keep coming back to dominate creation? In retalitation for this ability you could gimp his movement a bit, or make him unable to be transported by the obsidian gates.

 

[Chip56]

The respawning of the immortals is no longer tied to the promotion.
The promotion is a one time shoot (used for blood of phoenix, hyborem, basium and losha)

 

[Gutentag]

I realize that now, but I still pose the question why not give this ability to Hyborem, but make him a little less mobile(unable to use obsidian gate transport ability) so he can't come right back at you at full strength, but there's a little break to keep it from being to unfair. Also this would make an ability to never die unless killed twice on the same turn less useful the larger an infernal empire becomes(if killed it would take him longer to get back to the front lines).

 

[xienwolf]

Actually no Immortal promotion on Basium.

As for why Hyborem only gets 1 "do over," he is from a VERY unforgiving lot of people. And while he might seem like Top-Dog to us, he isn't ANYTHING compared to the folks back home who are kept off Erebus due to the Compact.

Thusly, he MIGHT be able to sneak back once, or convince them it was a fluke. But if he fails them again... almost certainly he can only PRAY for death at that point.

 

[rusty217]

Actually no Immortal promotion on Basium, and Losha has to earn his from killing an undead/demon, which doesn't work right now according to the bug thread.

Losha is actually a female, and she gets her immortal promotion by killing living units....... the vampire hero Losha Valas...

 

[xienwolf]

Ah craps. You are right, I was even just reading some lore on Losha the other day. I confused it with Donal Lugh, and for him it is the Recruiter promotion... Fact checked myself on the wrong bit of info that time... I need to get some pictures in my reference chart quick so I can avoid those mistakes

 

[Gutentag]

That makes sense, but I also have another idea. How about, to symbolize Hyborem's masters rewarding him, the possibility of regaining the immortal promotion if he razes a city then add certain spitulations such as,

City of a particular size, maybe only evil or nuetral civs(to represent a new influx of souls into hell).

Or perhaps a city of a particular size of good alignment, and you could consider the souls that are killed by Hyborem could be considered as tainted and would go to hell instead of heaven, thus taking away souls from heaven and providing people to torture & break.

or maybe cities with or without particular religions. Just spitballing ideas.

 

[smurven]

Kind of an aside, but ive heard that the infernals lose their traits if hyborem dies. This is alright I suppose, but ive heard that they lose their traits even when he dies just once and respawns. That doesn't really make sense. Is that intentional, if not, is it fixable?

 

[Xuenay]

Kind of an aside, but ive heard that the infernals lose their traits if hyborem dies. This is alright I suppose, but ive heard that they lose their traits even when he dies just once and respawns. That doesn't really make sense. Is that intentional, if not, is it fixable?

It's intentional, and it does makes sense - Hyborem may come back from the dead once, but he's seriously weakened (loss of traits). It also makes killing him the first time mean something and be a victory to the opposing side, so that it isn't just a couple of turns of delay before he's back.

 

[xienwolf]

Out of curiosity, does he drop the Gela on first death, or second?

 

[Tugendbold]

iirc he drops it on the second death. As to Losha Valas being bugged with the immortal promotion is that confirmed? Because in one game I was playing order calabim and then changed to basium. The tard AI then somehow managed to get the fully promoted vampire hero killed and I thought how is that possible... the AI should really be more carefull with heros.

 

[xienwolf]

No, I was wrong, gotta edit that post. I was confusing Losha with Donal. Losha is working just fine.

 

[smurven]

I'm mostly worried about this because of mercurians world spell. I guess thats a bug though so the dying once thing guaranteed (almost) wont always be an issue).

 

[Mortenart]

As far as I know, only Immortals have to be killed twice in the same turn

In my experience, all my immortal units only had to be killed twice (in any turn, not just in same turn) to be killed outright. Has always been this way for me, although I was under the impression from what I`ve read that it was sposed to be same turn only. If this were the case, it would be too unbalancing I think, considering the number of units that can potential become Immortal.

 

[Mewtarthio]

In my experience, all my immortal units only had to be killed twice (in any turn, not just in same turn) to be killed outright. Has always been this way for me, although I was under the impression from what I`ve read that it was sposed to be same turn only. If this were the case, it would be too unbalancing I think, considering the number of units that can potential become Immortal.

That's a reference to the "Immortal" unit (a national unit; Calabim get Vampire Lords, and Luchiurp get Bone Golems), which recovers the "Immortal" promotion every turn (unless that's been changed).

 

[xienwolf]

A unit with the PROMOTION Immortal is just kill it once to remove the promotion, then kill it again at any time and it is gone for good (unless it managed to re-acquire the promotion).

However, the Immortal units (and their UU counterparts) do not have the Immortal Promotion. They simply ARE immortal. These are the ones which must be killed twice in the same turn in order to keep them dead.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

That's a reference to the "Immortal" unit (a national unit; Calabim get Vampire Lords, and Luchiurp get Bone Golems), which recovers the "Immortal" promotion every turn (unless that's been changed).

It has been changed. Immortals no longer have the immortal promotion, but have the same effect without said promotion (they can still be killed if defeated twice in one turn)

 

[Mewtarthio]

It has been changed. Immortals no longer have the immortal promotion, but have the same effect without said promotion (they can still be killed if defeated twice in one turn)

So it still works the same as before, except there's no promotion keeping track of their immortality?