Implacable.

[heisenberg]

New promotion introduced by the Scions for Undead units, picked up after Combat IV.

Implacable:
-Can heal while moving
-2 first strikes
-Heals extra 50% damage in Enemy/Neut/Friendly lands
-Immune to capture

Allow me to pick out some similar promotions that have similar effects,
Drill IV: +2 first strikes, -20% collateral, +10% mounted
March: Can heal while moving, 10% healing in enemy lands
Loyalty: immune to capture

So... I love this promo, everyone does
Although this promo is only available at Combat IV (merely one later than March), it heals a whopping 50% in ALL territory, not only in enemy.
Not to mention 2 flat first strikes is akin to picking up Drill IV, even Drill III is only 2 first strike chances.
The loyalty effect is just icing on the cake.

This promotion is so broken, that I simply head down Combat I-IV everytime just to pick up implacable later. Its so powerful that it snuffs out all originality in promotion picking. (ok maybe I do occasionally detour and pick up Subdue Animal on my recon )

Imho, a promotion that does 50% healing in all territory is already good enough on its own--it simply means that you can practically stop and heal in hostile territory for 2 turns max and be in top condition, without a need for priests for Medic. That would at least force highly mobile units to possibly consider taking march too, though its overkill.
A pure 2 first strikes promotion right after combat IV is already a VERY powerful promotion. It almost gives the same bonuses as the top promo off the Drill line, on the Combat line--letting your high modified strength units hardly get scratched by weaker ones without having to go through Drill I-III.

I'd advocate for a splitting up of the promotion to these two promotions at least. Split up, each is already a very strong promotion on its own that I would seriously consider picking up, if not already broken on their own.

 

[odalrick]

There is no question that Implacable is great. However you did forget some things.

Implacable requires Undead, which is mostly a weakness. They are immune to several spells, like Heal, Regeneration, Haste and Loyalty. Like you said Loyalty is nothing, but the others are great, Implacable makes up for that.

The main effect of Drill IV, for me, is that it opens up Blitz. +2 first strikes makes it worth taking on it's own, but it's Blitz that makes the line worthwhile. Incidentally, Shadow I makes first strikes worthless.

That said, I'd probably still get Implacable if it was broken up in two. Although I might just get March and get a head start on Blitz.

Giving it a prereq might be enough. Necromancy would make it available at about the same time as Haste etcetera.

 

[Tarquelne]

The main point of balance was supposed to be a comparison to Combat V. Combat V gives much better odds than 2 first strikes. Immune to capture fits the effect (as do the first strikes, heal while moving, and healing) but I wouldn't consider it more than icing on the cake, given the prereqs.

A better comparison might be Marksman. Its prereq is Combat 4 and a tech (shout out to odalrick), and it grants a special ability. Implacable is mostly "special ability", in that it doesn't do a lot for your odds in an individual combat. How is it compared to Marksman?

The 50% healing does strike me as too high. That could be lowered dramatically.

Alternatively, what if Combat V were the prereq?

 

[xienwolf]

You could also consider placing an XP penalty. While the undead might be a difficult force to stop, they are also a difficult force to improve.

 

[heisenberg]

Yea I'll agree with 2 first strikes not being as useful as the march+50% healing part of implacable. However, thats really because the very high heal rate of implacable is just so darn powerful.

Comparing the 20% of combat V to the 2 first strikes, no doubt usually combat V allows you to win more often, but that is what the combat promos are for after all.
First strikes help your units to survive almost unscathed against weaker enemies and with the astonishing heal rate you would be at full health to hit another unit next turn.
Both the raw 20% str and first strikes are useful in their own ways, but being able to pick up a first strike promo equivalent to skipping over the "lousy" drill I-III promos on the combat line is simply priceless.

Lowering the heal rate significantly (to maybe in the 10-20% range) could help for one.
Pushing the prereq up to combat V would also certainly help to lower the number of units with implacable, and so would a tech prereq help to delay the already very powerful early scions.
Placing an XP penalty on the undead might be slightly overkill for other undead users like diseased corpses and pyre zombies--though in my last game i was happily surprised to be able to pick up implacable on them

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd like to see it moved to combat 5, and maybe dropped down to 30% heal... I don't know if that would be quite enough, but I do know that at the moment any unit I have with implacable is renamed so I can pick them out easier... They're my stack breakers.

 

[MaxAstro]

Personally, I like Implacable being as powerful as it is... as long as only the Risen Emperor and Revenants have access to it. Those units deserve to be nearly unkillable. But having access to it with EVERY unit is fairly broken. Being unable to heal while moving is one of the major disadvantages of Recon and especially Mounted units. 50% heal rate + heal while moving pretty much makes a unit invincible. Especially for those who play Simultaneous Turns, in which the unit will heal before the enemy has a chance to attack.

In short, I'd much prefer Implacable be left as is but limited to only those few units. Undead already have a lot of advantages; Cannibalize is a major one that can make a huge difference and more than makes up for being immune to regeneration. Plus they are immune to some of the most common damage types. They don't need an insanely strong promotion on top of that, especially not a group of undead as already strong as the Scions.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Since I have not played Scions more then briefly since they came out in the latest version I cannot say - but I have the same word of caution as before. It is very easy to motivate why undead should be great in various ways .. one must make sure that not only the actual balance is maintained but also that there is the perception of a balanced race. For example Giantkin promotion with Jotnar is quite good with reduced collateral damage for example, but it also brings a reduced XP from combat.

I have faith in Tal's judgement. God, I imagine the writings when I put out Jotnar. "You get axemen that are base str 6 and increases to str 10 by simply sitting still for 210 turns? Are you insane?".

For me, I'd like the healing to be reduced. Undead for me always 'basically' should be weaker the further they stray from their haunted lands.

 

[zup]

If you nerf implacable then at least buff abominations. An 'immortal' unique unit, who is not immortal is already a huge factor in faction balance.

That uber promoted crossbowman too much for the uber phalanx? Too many first strikes to use cannon fodder? Not a problem. Here comes the immortal to 'sacrifice' himself to bring down the crossbowman's strength.

The lack of such is a major weakness. And yes, my games usually last to tier 4.

 

[heisenberg]

Yep, hitting it badly with the nerf bat would mean we should consider improving the Scion Abominations too.
Currently the "free" implacable for them simply means that they have a very easy time farming up barbs and such for a lot of quick XP safely without much trouble, which they need to overcome the lack of immortality.




*PS* anyone else still cant get that image of a hook handed, open bellied Abomination from WC out of your head when you think of abominations?

 

[zup]

Not really. There are other things the word reminds me of.

And I have probably played that game more than 1000 hours in total. Definitely the best fun/cost ratio of any game I bought so far. Too bad it's all DotA today...

Hmmmm, off-topic.

 

[Shatner]

New promotion introduced by the Scions for Undead units, picked up after Combat IV.

Implacable:
-Can heal while moving
-2 first strikes
-Heals extra 50% damage in Enemy/Neut/Friendly lands
-Immune to capture

Allow me to pick out some similar promotions that have similar effects,
Drill IV: +2 first strikes, -20% collateral, +10% mounted
March: Can heal while moving, 10% healing in enemy lands
Loyalty: immune to capture

So... I love this promo, everyone does
Although this promo is only available at Combat IV (merely one later than March), it heals a whopping 50% in ALL territory, not only in enemy.
Not to mention 2 flat first strikes is akin to picking up Drill IV, even Drill III is only 2 first strike chances.
The loyalty effect is just icing on the cake.

This promotion is so broken, that I simply head down Combat I-IV everytime just to pick up implacable later. Its so powerful that it snuffs out all originality in promotion picking. (ok maybe I do occasionally detour and pick up Subdue Animal on my recon )

Imho, a promotion that does 50% healing in all territory is already good enough on its own--it simply means that you can practically stop and heal in hostile territory for 2 turns max and be in top condition, without a need for priests for Medic. That would at least force highly mobile units to possibly consider taking march too, though its overkill.
A pure 2 first strikes promotion right after combat IV is already a VERY powerful promotion. It almost gives the same bonuses as the top promo off the Drill line, on the Combat line--letting your high modified strength units hardly get scratched by weaker ones without having to go through Drill I-III.

I'd advocate for a splitting up of the promotion to these two promotions at least. Split up, each is already a very strong promotion on its own that I would seriously consider picking up, if not already broken on their own.

I am not convinced that implacable is so overpowered. I mean, yeah if evaluated in a vacuum then it's a slice of awesome pie with a dribbling of awesome sauce served on an awesome platter; it is objectively superior to several promotions, namely march and Drill I through III. However, to have implacable you have to have two things: undead and combat IV. Let's put these pre-reqs in a little perspective.

Now, let's get this in the open: the undead racial promo is pretty tepid. It gives you neither the increased mobility of elven, dwarven or lizardman nor the preferred terrain combat bonus. You are immune to two of the less common damage types (poison and death) and weak to probably the second most common damage type (holy). Furthermore, you are unable to use spells like courage, valor, haste, regeneration, and so on all the while having a specific spell (Destroy Undead) out to get you and you alone (plus Basium's world spell nukes undead in addition to demons). By having undead units you are NOT having elven units, dwarven units or simply vanilla, haste-able living units. Having access to unique promotions like fear and implacable helps make having undead units be worth their opportunity cost

Healing in FFH is not terribly hard to come by. Every priest in the game gives you +30% healing (medic 1 and 2), march (+10%), courage tacks on +10%, regeneration is basically a free march promotion for everyone in the stack and then there are the myriad other options like vampirism, cannibalism, that Sirona wonder (Sirona's Touch?), the heal spell, repair, combat IV, combat V and possibly one or two more. As such, giving units the ability to heal themselves fully within one to two turns isn't as overwhelming as you would expect.

First strikes are nifty. They allow super-promoted Godzilla units to stomp on armies without suffering much attrition. It also gives cannon fodder a slightly improved chance of nicking said Godzilla unit. With a pre-req of combat IV, implacable is clearly going to be taken by would-be Godzilla units. However, when you are as tough or tougher than the bulk of your opposition, first strike chances just make your big, stompy unit better able to end an attack with more health; it doesn't actually make them big and tough in the first place. So, by taking implacable you are essentially taking Drill IV INSTEAD of taking combat V or city raider or shock or whatever.

The immunity to capture part is cute but I think we all agree that it is just the cherry on the top of the sundae; nice but not the reason we'd order it.

As such, implacable gives you first strikes at the expense of an actual increase in strength (combat V... so more a trade off than an objectively superior choice), lots of healing in a game where you can already get lots of healing and a neat but ultimately trivial immunity. Meanwhile it fits the theme of the indefatigable undead who tirelessly wear down their living opponents courtesy of their unnatural constitution.

I say we leave it alone.

 

[Mailbox]

Now, let's get this in the open: the undead racial promo is pretty tepid. It gives you neither the increased mobility of elven, dwarven or lizardman nor the preferred terrain combat bonus. You are immune to two of the less common damage types (poison and death) and weak to probably the second most common damage type (holy). Furthermore, you are unable to use spells like courage, valor, haste, regeneration, and so on all the while having a specific spell (Destroy Undead) out to get you and you alone (plus Basium's world spell nukes undead in addition to demons). By having undead units you are NOT having elven units, dwarven units or simply vanilla, haste-able living units. Having access to unique promotions like fear and implacable helps make having undead units be worth their opportunity cost.

I think that the ability to get cannabilize and fear more than make up for Undead's "tepidness". Cannabilize is one of the best promotions in the game and can make a defender literally impossible to dislodge unless you have a great number of Drill promoted units. Healing 10% after every combat isn't great for the average unit but it makes the super units able to tear through endless amounts of fodder with little to no damage. This also fits their ability to continue slaughtering when other troops would fail.

I'd also not underestimate the value of being immune to death damage. It hurts the ability of death summons to hurt your units, although this isn't so important to the average single player game.

I agree that the Undead promotion has its weaknesses but ignoring the opportunities available to the powerful undead units is missing their key strengths.

Implacable isn't that overpowered though, I agree on that. Cannabilize will be the greatest source of healing for most undead units of a higher level. The other stuff is just nice and works as a promotion.

 

[Darksaber1]

I found being imune to poison very useful in my last game, since I had some 3 goblin fort quite near me.

 

[zup]

I agree. My last Scions game I started near them goblins. As soon as I pumped out a honored band I could farm them for easy experience. Cutting 33% of their strength? Hell, yeah!

And death immunity makes all those skeletons a minor nuisance, though they are not terribly dangerous anyway. Furthermore it is nifty against Calabim. Not that AI goes crazy with its summons.

What undead is good for is immunity to fear. Sure you can use courage but built in immunity achieves the same thing.

And you are right about cannibalize, it is way more common source of healing for uber units. Now if only the AI suicided more.

 

[Vehem]

Personally, I like Implacable being as powerful as it is... as long as only the Risen Emperor and Revenants have access to it. Those units deserve to be nearly unkillable. But having access to it with EVERY unit is fairly broken. Being unable to heal while moving is one of the major disadvantages of Recon and especially Mounted units. 50% heal rate + heal while moving pretty much makes a unit invincible. Especially for those who play Simultaneous Turns, in which the unit will heal before the enemy has a chance to attack.

To be honest - that was the way I thought it was when I first played Scions - limited to just a few units. I had similar concerns about the potency of Malaise when it only required Combat II (very potent to be generally available). I'd say that Implacable is going to need either a fairly hefty tech-prereq, removal from general availability or a reduction in power (and I also like that it's very powerful for the few units that start with it, so I'd rather not nerf the promotion itself, leaving the first two options).

I'd probably favour making it Risen Emperor/Revenant specific - to emphasize the power of these units. +50% heal is a very potent ability for any promotion, and doubly so when combined with March. Somehow it becomes a lot less "special" if stacks of Honoured Band start gaining it...

Now, let's get this in the open: the undead racial promo is pretty tepid. It gives you neither the increased mobility of elven, dwarven or lizardman nor the preferred terrain combat bonus. You are immune to two of the less common damage types (poison and death) and weak to probably the second most common damage type (holy).

I'd argue that Poison is one of the most common in FF (Scorpion Clan, Archos, Coatlann) and that Death is also very common in MP games (or even vs Barbarians). Holy is fairly prevalent, but again it's really MP games that it becomes most common.

 

[Tarquelne]

How about this:

I do like the idea of the promotion being special, but want to consider sufficiently experienced units special enough. I like the idea that Implacable is something units can pick up, though they don't exactly enjoy the process.

So... Reduce healing to 20-30% and make the prereq Combat V, or Combat V + something(s) else? Drill II?

I think nothing finishes an army like a crack troop of Implacable Principes, but wouldn't mind waiting longer/working harder to get them. 1-3 more levels required should put the kibosh on "stacks" of lower-tech units with it.
Hmm... and no more deciding whether I want Combat V or Implacable. (I'd usually go with Implacable, but just because I could.)

EDIT: Actually, I'm not sure on the "stacks" thing - I've always had only a few units earning Implacable, but then mages do most of my fighting. How often are you guys getting Implacable with it's current prereq?

 

[xienwolf]

Another option would be to use PromotionExclude tags so that having implacable blocks a wide range of other things. Make it require Drill III and block Combat III-V and Drill IV. Then you are getting a large single-shot boost, but at the cost of a LOT of other promotions (well, probably not too many, blocking ALL combat promotions would block you from a LOT)

 

[MaxAstro]

If it's widely available, it needs to only be available to certain unitcombats. Honestly I think it's too powerful to be widely available, but I don't want the Risen Emperor and Revenants to lose one of their main features.

One of the biggest issues is that it gives March to Mounted and Recon units, which is almost overpowered on it's own.

It's mostly just an advantage the Scions don't need. They are an incredibly potent civ with a lot of advantages, and Implacable being widely available pushes them over the edge much like Financial did for the Mazatl. They already have almost the best production and culture of any civ; they don't need to strongest army on top of that.

And the three most common damage types are death, fire, and poison. Holy is only common late game. Death is also a very common affinity type. Cannibalize, as stated before, is a hugely powerful promotion. Overall, undead, especially early game, is an advantage.

 

[Valkrionn]

Honestly, I agree that it gives too much of a boost to the recon and mounted units, as they don't need to heal like that along with their increased mobility. I do like it being available to Melee units, but think moving it back a few levels would be just fine. Combat V and Drill II or III sounds about right. Typically, I end up with 4 or so implacable units, usually farmed from Centeni.