Improvement giving Storage to City? [IMPLEMENTED]

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

recently the topic came up again that there is not enough Storage Space in Cities in late game.
Also people are afraid that with all the Goods coming up in branch "Yields" this may even "become worse".

So basically what I would offer to implement is an Improvement (to be built on Plots) that if worked on by a Citizen inside the City gives e.g. 600 additional storage.
(The balancing would of course be fully configurable in XML - so let us not discuss too much about details of numbers.)

Also like e.g. in this concept here, there would need to be at least one plot distance between those, so not 2 of them could be built directly next to each other.
Considering gameplay it is actually also pretty fair, because you have to chose to build this Improvement or another one that e.g. increases Yields.

Additional conditions / aspects:
- Build Costs like e.g. Farm
- Yields +1 Food for Terrain
- Only within City borders of course
- also having an Upgrade for it (Growing Improvement)
- Flatland Only
- It removes Terrain Features

It is actually pretty easy to implement and I even already have the graphics I need.
So basically I am asking if I should implement this or not.

By the way:
AI really does not need it currently - since it basically sells Overflows without penality at 100% price.
(So I would also tell AI to not use it, i.e. configure AI balancing in a way to tell AI: "This is not worth it.")

Comment:
Everybody that does not really like the idea could simply chose to ignore this Improvement.
(I would not change anything in current balancing to make usage of this Improvement necessary.)

Summary:
It is basically just an offer, because effort is really really low.
Let me know if I should implement it or not ... i.e. vote for or against it.

Best regards
Ray

Here is how the improvement would look like:
(Found the graphics in the mod of @Kathy but I do not know who created them.)

 

[Windock]

Sorry for a harsh response, Ray. But this is my single biggest issue with the game.

I personally double storage of the highest level warehouse building in XML. That, for me, is a pretty good balance.
200 extra storage is laughable, and is just a pointless busywork. I really like developing my cities, setting up trade routes, optimizing city improvements. What I do not like is a dozen of actions I have to do to manage city storage every single turn. It takes, like, 5 extra minutes, per turn, for me in mid-game (not even late game). It requires, basically, to move goods to Trek. But not full amount, since I have to consider domestic market and demand, but only part of it through shift-dragging. And then, moving those goods from one track to another, or to ship.

I would consider this if it is at least 2000 extra storage.

I personally play with a few big manufacturing (regional) cities approaching ~50 colonists. So let's take that size as an example.
Hear me out.
I consider realistic for the city to store equipment for 10% of the population to become military. So 2 heavy cavalry (400) and 3 line infantry (360). 760 storage.
Then we need storage for at least 3 turns of production ingredients. 3 different industries per city, second level of building. 36 * 3 * 3 = 324
Then we need storage for at lest 5 turns of goods for domestic market (more turns because they may arrive not regularly, from Europe or from parts of the colony that are far away). Let's take 10 different goods total (I produce just 10 finished goods for domestic market in my game, so not even all of them). Current domestic demand for those goods is 136 per turn total. For 5 turns it is 680.

At this stage we have 1764 storage required.

Highest level storage building (without Customs House) is 2100. Then regional market + city hall gives 400 storage. Total 2500. We're left with ~600 storage extra.

Every big city can live only with the help of a few smaller cities producing raw goods. I have a trade system set up so that wagons from small cities go to the closest regional city only. Then, from the regional cities, trade routes are set up to go to capital. Basically, trade is always between only 2 cities.

For that to work, I need to store produce from small cities in regional cities. My current game has small cities producing ~80 goods per turn. Each regional city has, let's say, 2 small cities. And we want at least 3 turns of storage (no good roads to small cities). 80 * 2 * 3 = 480 storage.

That's it. We have 100 storage available after that. It will be taken by "helpful" proposals of natives to trade us some goods (and for which no automated trade is set up).

And I'm not event taking into account factory-level buildings.

I do not have space available in a capital for export goods. I have to move produce to treks every single turn for them to not get lost.
If I don't do that, I get dozens of notifications about "goods lost/goods sold/storage approaching it's limits". All alerts (I removed those from source code locally).
If I do not use shift-dragging, my domestic market is not fulfilled. So I get revolts. And unhappiness. I really don't like unhappiness in my main cities.
And worse of all, my weapons are thrown away. So my city becomes defenseless. Those weapons in midgame are bought from Europe for a very high price.

Part of midgame is preparing for the war with Empire. For that I need to stockpile iron ore/tools/weapons/horses. Cities produce about 100 of that per turn. So every 4th turn per city I have to move it to Trek. I have to do that every single turn since I have multiple cities producing those. I cannot just set up a trade route, and export it to a city that is a "military base". I have to do dozens of actions per single turn not to get my goods lost.

 

[Windock]

I tried overcoming all these issues. I have previously set up complex fully automated trade routes to supply domestic goods in small quantities. But fully automated trade routes are really hard to use and unintuitive. And you have to do hundreds of clicks per city to set them up. And any problems lead to issues very hard to debug. For that strategy I needed a lot of wagons. I do not find this strategy fulfilling. Lots of UI improvements are needed before I consider doing it again. I had a few cases of wagons dumping hundreds of very valuable goods to some random small city because it had nowhere to store them. And then they all got lost (not storage available). This is absolutely not acceptable.

I considered buying/building lots of ships, and setting up automated trade routes to/from Europe. There were issues with that, I don't remember which. I do not use automated trade routes with Europe. Does anyone?

What works for me, is setting up manual trade routes between 2 cities only (small => regional => capital cities). But for this strategy I need some pretty big buffer in regional and capital cities. There is no way for me to get it without doing huge amount of busy work. I would prefer to have just another storage building that doubles existing limits. The one that requires only City Hall. A straight upgrade from Warehouse Expansion. It would be ideal to have an extra one upgrade available for capital city.

I really like domestic market. However, I do not want to set up automatic trade routes for that (too many clicks, too many issues). I would prefer to dump goods manually from time to time to cities that need some happiness goods. I really need extra storage for that.

 

[raystuttgart]

@Windock
Balancing is most of the time mostly a matter of personal taste.
Especially since we offer both 1-Plot and 2-Plot City Radius.

And it is easy to configure in XML by everybody who wants to change it.
Thus I usually consider most discussions about balancing a waste of time.

But ok, let us make this Improvement give e.g. 600 Storage as a default.
Once in testing phase we will be able to figure out what works best anyways.

What I wanted to know is:
Do you want to be able to build Improvements for Storage?

----

Everybody is free to balance whatever he likes in his XML.
In my private modmod of WTP I also have a complete personal taste balancing of my own.

The current balancing is nothing more than a "default compromise".
(e.g. for 1-Plot-City-Radius and 2-Plot-City-Radius.)

I acutally really expect that everybody takes the XML of WTP and configures it to his liking.
That is what modding is about - that is why we try to make everything configurable in XML.

----

So let us please not change this thread into a balancing discussion.
(We would discuss ourselves to death and end up in personal taste argumentations.)

All the other discussions started in your posts are not about this feature.
(Domestic Market, Automated Trade Routes, Preparation for WOI, ...)

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Summary:
Do you guys want me to implement this feature, so you have another gameplay option for Storage?
(And of course it will be configurable in XML to balance to personal taste.)

 

[Windock]

After consideration and discussion with Ray,
I think it is a fine change as I can increase it's storage myself from 400 to something closer to 2000.
It kinda makes sense, if you consider some military storage taking a whole district.
It is not clear what will happen if someone destroys that storage. Will all goods go to overflow, and sold/lost?

 

[raystuttgart]

It is not clear what will happen if someone destroys that storage.

When the Improvement is pillaged, the City Storage Capacity will simply drop again by the amount given.
That is already all that will happen - so the goods would not directly be lost. (I want to keep the feature logic simple.)

• It is there (and a Citizen inside City is working the Plot) --> gives additional Storage Capacity
• It is not there (or no Citizen inside City is working the Plot) --> it does not give additional Storage Capacity

As simple as that.

Of course if your Storage Capacity drops again, it is possible that Storage Overflow will kick in, because you Storage is too full.
(But that is normal and not as harsh as "directly losing 500 Goods" - which I kind of find too punishing.)

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok, considering the reaction on this so far, I consider this "accepted".
(As I said, it is pretty easy to implement, thus I should be able to fully implement it until tomorrow evening.)

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok, I also created a "2nd Level" (as Growing Improvement).

1st Level:
Supply Depot
Gives 600 additional Storage

2nd Level:
Large Supply Depot
Gives 1000 additional Storage

Image of "Large Supply Depot":

Spoiler :

 

[raystuttgart]

The feature is fully implemented.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Why does a storage building that gives storage space, give +1 food / +2 food in addition? After all, noone is to say what the player decides to store there - a storage building full of say pitchforks, torches, feathers and tar producing food? If that is not the building but the terrain, how is that possible? After all the terrain is used to build the building upon, preventing anything but a bit of grass to grow to allow largescale storage of stuff to much or too bulky for the crowded, narrow city...

Would it be possible to allow that building only in squares that are connected by at least the first level of road to the city as without the timely access to the goods in the cityscreen should not be possible?

Instead of an average of 20 gold - wouldn´t the only realistic solution be to yield the entire storage to the enemy if the building is plundered and looted? And if that is not possible, as if even goods stored in the reach of the enemy would be protected by the cities defences, we then should shy away from that kind of storage outside the city square?

 

[raystuttgart]

Why does a storage building that gives storage space, give +1 food / +2 food in addition?

I had no special reason for it.

But why not, a "Lumberjack Camp" also gives a bit of Bonus to Lumber.
Maybe there are tools in there or by e.g. shortening the distance to storage people are more effective.

You can come up with lots of reasons for or against everything in balancing.
I just imagined that it would not hurt to give it a small +1, so people do not complain about "it has no effect".

By the way:
Collector's Posts also give a small bonus on Food.

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Would it be possible to allow that building only in squares that are connected by at least the first level of road ...

There is no DLL functionality related to XML for allowing Improvements only with Roads, so I would have had to add new XML tags with logic specifically for this single feature.
I saw no need to do so and actually also do not understand why we should have a "only if road exists" for this specific Improvement only.

See, every feature can be implemented in a 100 different ways, some more complicated, some a bit more simple.
I was trying to use the "standard Build mechanics for Improvements" - just the Improvement itself has a specific feature.

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Instead of an average of 20 gold - wouldn´t the only realistic solution be to yield the entire storage to the enemy if the building is plundered and looted?

I tried to create a small feature in about 4 to 5 hours.
I did not intend to spend 24+ hours (i.e. 3 days) on it.

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See, it is a simple feature I could implement in a few hours, with exactly the mechanics as I had described in this post.
I tried to give an option for some players complaining about "not enough storage", that would actually also add a bit of player interaction and decision making.

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Could it be "better"? Could it be "different"? Could it be "more immersive"?
Yeah, probably it could, but then I could not have implemented it in 4 to 5 hours.

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Summary:
I achieved what I had described in the concept and I am quite happy with the result.
Any modder motivated to build on top of that to make the solution more complex may of course do so.

 

[Mr. ZorG]

Ray, that's a great little addition! but I have a question: have you thought about creating a specialist who will work in the warehouse and produce something (maybe trade goods or some of your new ones from Yields)?
yes, I understand that it will require additional time (a lot of time) to create. It is just a question. well, or a suggestion for the development of this small add-on)

 

[HobyMorgan]

Ray, that's a great little addition! but I have a question: have you thought about creating a specialist who will work in the warehouse and produce something (maybe trade goods or some of your new ones from Yields)?

Yeah! That would be awesome to produce trade goods, instead of buying them from Europe! Normally, I always hope the "trade good event" is triggered in the game to supply my colony steadily with trade goods to equip my native traders (I believe it is a dialog box about discovering a source of jade in the ore mines surrounding a settlement), but most of my games this never happens and I end up buying the goods manually..

But it shouldn't be overpowered; they could provide the same amount of trade goods per turn as the trade goods event, so if you need heaps of trade goods because your university just spat out a few expert native traders, you would still end up buying the goods in Europe / Africa / Port Royal / other colonial nations..