Improvement Recuriments

[Princeps]

(I hope i didin't spell the title wrong )

Well one thing thats very unrealistic about civ is that the cities do not need specific building to train advanced units. For example can city build an modern armor if it doesn't have a factory! So i would suggest that there should specialized buildings , like this:

Horse Breeder + Blacksmith = Knights

Blacksmith + Basic Barracks = Swordsmen

Bronzesmith = Spearmen, Hopplite

Also, unit productions buildings would evole:

Basic Barracks (Warrior Code(?) - Militia Barracks (Writing) - Military Barracks ( Feudalism ) ....

Get it?

 

[mitsho]

you spelt the title wrong: improved requirements. Although 'improved' doesn't sound really right.

And no to your idea. Why? It's too complicated and what would the benefits be? I'd rather have some other ideas in this forum in (several leaders per civ, better sciences, better new victory conditions for example).

mfG mitsho

 

[sir_schwick]

A little too much Total Warrish, but having basic requirements for certain genres of units would be cool.

Barracks for any would make war-mongering a little harder(non-combat types only without it).
Harbour for military ships.
Courthouse for units of nobility(relevant in middle ages).
Factory for any mechanized(includes arty) units.
Airport for any aircraft.

 

[rhialto]

I think it should be moddable into the game for specific scenarios, and maybe have a limited number of units have specific buildings (factories for tanks, shipyards for battleships). But for the epic game, having new buildings whose sole purpose is to be a requirement fo making a unit is a very bad idea.

 

[sir_schwick]

I agree no buildings sole purpose should be for a unit, however certain buildings represent the industry or other factors needed for building a unit type. It could be used as a way to help builders a little.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, I would be happy to have a system in the editor where you can set certain buildings to be required for certain units. In vanilla, this could be as simple as barracks=units, factory=armour etc. In the editor, though, you could have as many units as you wanted being improvement dependant, and make the improvement requirements as specific as you wanted.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[sir_schwick]

Aussie's suggestion is what I meant, not a TW style requirement system.

 

[rhialto]

I wouldn't make a barracks a requirement for anything. It already gives a huge bonus (veteran status) that anything more would be overpowered.

 

[Hunter]

I tried a mod where units could only be produced by buildings except settlers and workers. It had limited success but the idea was sound in that tanks can not be produced without at least one factory for parts.

So I see it working as this:
you need One resource and one unit building (which could also create some other item, produce refined goods allow unit trading for example) somewhere in your empire. Unit buildings could also service multiple units over several ages, Factories for example could last from industrial to modern while weapon smith shops for every era before. This would make destroying buildings more important to war (like bombing raids on key cities).

 

[sir_schwick]

What if we remove veteran status and then make a Veteran upgrade building that appears with Monarchy(would make it an important research this time)?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, here is an idea.

Barracks no longer automatically confer veteran status on built units. Instead, they have a few more minor functions. First, that they are the basis for producing any unit more complex than a warrior. Second, that along with a number of other improvements you can build through history, they increase the rate of experience they obtain per victory. Lastly, barracks are still an underpinning for units to be upgraded in a city-though any other requirements for the upgraded unit must be in place too.

It should be noted that they came VERY close to giving us this in Conquests-where they had buildings that conferred units every X turns. My only problem with that was that it gave the player NO control, and left him often with units which he/she simply could not use.

Another possibility is that a barracks from the Ancient age becomes obsolete once you reach either the Classical or Middle Ages, meaning you have to build a new barracks if you want the units from this age-that could make things intriguing !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[sir_schwick]

Aussie, I do have to agree with your proposal. Now that barracks have been agreed upon, lets move onto some other special buidling requirements for units.

Courthouse for units of nobility - includes Knights, Royal Bodygaurds, Persian Immortals
Temple for religious fanatics - includes Knight Templars, Hashinin(should be Arab UU, 5/5/1)
Marketplace for mercenary types - includes Numidian Mercenaries, Swiss Mercenary Pikemen, Heshians, Nung Mercenaries
Factory - Tanks, Artillery, Radar Artillery, Mech Inf, Modern Armour
Aiport with Factory - Figher, Bombers, Helicopters

that is just some ideas

 

[rhialto]

If changes are made to barrakcs basic functionality, it still shouldn't be a pre-req for 'every unit more complex than a warrior', because then it becomes a no-brainer decision on whether to build it. maybe for offensive units only, so you can still maintain a passable defence without it.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

well, warrior and spearman-at any rate . In addition, you could have different improvements being required for different unit types. So a church and/or stables might be required to make Knight Templars, wheras a stable and/or weaponsmith might be required for standard horsemen units.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[rhialto]

I dunno. For mods its cool, but for the epic game, it seems a little micro to me.

 

[GoodGame]

It depends....for example in WWII, the U.S. mobilized its industries (Nationalism) so that commercial factories were re-configured to produce similar military equipment. For CIV, a similar thing might be to give a small cost discount if the city produces the same unit every consecutively.



RAR/DYP uses the "FORGE" as a building that gives a shield bonus. Make it a requirement for armor-using units, and that'd make some sense. A "STABLE" would be a good requirement, on top of horses for horse-units.

Most things in the Industrial Era and on should probably have "FACTORY" as the pre-requisite building. And anything made in the Modern era+ should get a production discount if made by the "Automated Plant", but still only require a Factory. The shield costs probably already take that into consideration, but I'd agree "FACTORY" should be the pre-requisite.

Knights should probably require "Castles" or "Manors" (The conquest Scenario would.

No need to invent a Barracks requirement for all units. The Industrial and Modern units should probably need a "Barracks" also.

But overall, I'd keep it simple, too many different types is just too cute, unless it adds to the gameplay in more than this one dimension. The main point of a building requirement is to give the construction know-how a time and place, not just a spot on the tech tree and a road link to a resource. No need to overdue it.

Well one thing thats very unrealistic about civ is that the cities do not need specific building to train advanced units. For example can city build an modern armor if it doesn't have a factory! So i would suggest that there should specialized buildings , like this:

Horse Breeder + Blacksmith = Knights

Blacksmith + Basic Barracks = Swordsmen

Bronzesmith = Spearmen, Hopplite

Also, unit productions buildings would evole:

Basic Barracks (Warrior Code(?) - Militia Barracks (Writing) - Military Barracks ( Feudalism ) ....

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

I am, on some level, inclined to agree with you Rhialto. I want it to be POSSIBLE to link the construction of a unit to having an appropriate improvement or wonder, so that we could mod ANY degree of unit requirement that we want. It could be an extension of the 'resource prerequisite' system of the existing civ3 editor. You go into that box, and it lists not JUST resources, but improvements and wonders too.

In the vanilla game, it really could be as simple as a weaponsmith to build early offensive foot units, a factory to build mechanized units, a stable to build mounted units and airfield/airport to build air units. Anything more I would be happy to add msyelf!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[rhialto]

What I'd like to see...

Barracks - Does not give veteran status. Not a requirement for any unit. Allows upgrades and 1 turn healing.

stables - required for all mounted (on animals) units
forge - required for all 'lots of metal armour' units
*shipyard - required for all major ships
workshop - required for 'gunpowder and up' units
factory - required for all armoured vehicles, including modern oil-fuelled (and later) warships
airport - required for jet aircraft and up
nuclear power plant - required for nuclear weapons, and nuclear powered ships (CVN, late model CG)

Some units might have multiple building res under this. Knights would need stables and a forge, while cavalry would need stables and a workshop.

The stables is an entirely new improvement, and I'm a bit uneasy about it because it has no other obvious application (maybe some kind of farming bonus?) The forge and workshop have obvious industrial bonuses. I'm uneasy about making the shipyard a unit pre-req, unless it is also not the default veteran ship building. The same goes for the airport.

 

[Princeps]

Farming bonus from stables is not realistic, horses were too expensive to be used in farming. A somesorth of a trade bonus would be nice tough.

 

[rhialto]

Horses weren't used in farming? Well, that'll be news to my late grandfather then. Certain horses were bred specifically for use in farming, such as the shire horse.

Horses weren't used in ancient farming because no one had bothered to invent a plough harness that wouldn't choke the poor things until the middle ages. Presumably because the yokes used for oxen worked well enough, and there was no pressing need to invent a means of yoking a horse.

Horses are stronger and can move faster, as well as their physical shape being different (neck is more exposed), so a yoke that is good for an ox is quite capable of doing serious harm to a horse. Yes, horses were harnessed to chariots, but those drew a notably lighter load than a plough, and usually had two or more horses in any case. These two features combined was usually enough to reduce the load on each horse to safe levels.