1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Improving Great People

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Amrunril, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,187
    Looking ahead at the New Frontier Pass schedule, the November update promises “numerous new Great People”. Since such developments presumably take some time to prepare, I thought it would be a good time to start talking both about possible new great people and about broader improvements to the great person system.

    Great Person Generation
    Currently, the overwhelming majority of great person points are generated based on the corresponding districts and buildings merely existing. It makes sense for this long-term infrastructure investment to provide some baseline production, but making it so dominant over other factors makes great person races largely passive (with the notable exception of faith/gold purchases). Scaling back the relative importance of buildings and districts relative to projects and policies would allow players to make more active choices about which great people to pursue. Adding great person points to specialists would aid in this goal as well, and it would also provide a needed reward for city growth (and simply make specialists more interesting).

    On a much narrower note, there’s currently an odd mechanism/possible bug where, due to cost modifications for great people ahead of the current era, an expensive great person will immediately be followed by two cheaper ones, which can then be awarded immediately. Since this phenomenon takes away the ability to make active choices about investing in these great people, reworking the relevant cost mechanic would make for a significant gameplay improvement with a relatively simple change.

    New Great People
    There’s been a lot of discussion of possible new types of great people, and while I certainly wouldn’t object to Great Entertainers or similar additions, I’d actually see new great people of the existing types as a higher priority. Over Civ VI’s development, we’ve gotten a huge variety of new civs, new wonders and new city states, but we’re still competing for the same three Great Scientists per era as we had on release. Adding more possibilities here would bring a lot of variety to the game. Similarly, adding great people to the future era (presumably with fictional or randomized names) would keep the mechanic from falling by the wayside as the game approaches its conclusion.

    Unique Great Artists
    Unique abilities on great scientists, merchants and engineers (and, to a lesser extent, admirals and generals) bring a lot of variety to the game and are one of the areas where Civ VI made major improvements over Civ V. Unfortunately, great artists, writers and musicians lack the same individuality. While they have do have unique flavor, in gameplay terms, one writer is identical to another writer, and one musician is identical to another musician, and artists vary only with regard to the theming mechanism.

    I don’t think this needs to be the case. While I would keep some GWAMs purely as great work generators, I would also mix in great people who generate a lesser number of great works but who provide some other bonus while doing so. A great writer, for instance, might generate a work of writing and a random civic boost, while a musician might generate a work of music and add an amenity boost to broadcast towers.

    These unique abilities could also add some distinct flavor to different types of cultural great people and works. I’d envision writer abilities being largely focused around civic advancement, with musicians tied more strongly to amenities, tourism and rock bands. Among artists, there could be a further breakdown based on great work types. Religious artists could, of course, have religion focused abilities, while sculptors could interact with wonders, production, and resources. Portrait artists could have abilities relating to other great people and to governors, and landscape artists could interact with appeal and national parks. Of course, all these patterns could have occasional exceptions, where appropriate for specific historical figures.

    Reworking great artists in this way is probably the most ambitious change I’m suggesting here, and it would likely require a major rebalance of great works and great work slots. If implemented, though, I think it would be a great way of adding variety to cultural games, while also adding new ways of employing culture as a means of pursuing other goals.



    Possible Great People
    Below are specific ideas for great people that could be added to the game, including GWAMs incorporating the ideas above. My focus here is on game mechanics rather than names, but you should feel free to suggest historical names matching either these abilities or your own suggestions.

    Great Scientists
    • Instantly build a campus district. This ability can be used even in a city that already has a campus. While the limit of one district per type per city is a good mechanic, allowing it to be bypassed on an occasional basis would make for some interesting city planning and specialization choices. Great person abilities seem like a good way of enabling that. Equivalent abilities for other districts could be added for the corresponding great person types
    • +1 Science from campus specialists Again, great people of other types could have corresponding abilities
    • Begin research on a ______ era technology of your choice, ignoring prerequisites.
    • +100% science from tile yields in this city
    • Storm disasters have a chance of adding science yields to your tiles.
    • Create a marine preserve, including the 6 adjacent tiles. This preserve acts as a national park, providing amenities and tourism.
    • Reveal the position of Smart Materials on the tech tree and gain a Eureka towards it. The late game scientists were very much designed around the original science victory. Here are a couple designed to work better in the new system.
    • Your exoplanet expedition reaches its destination after 40 light years of travel.
    Great Merchants
    • Gain 500 Gold and +5 era score.
    • +4 gold from trade routes to players with whom you are trading luxury resources.
    • +5 Gold per turn from aerodrome districts and all buildings constructed within them
    • Immediately gain 10 diplomatic favor for each of your active trade routes.
    • Found a city, gaining 500 gold for each adjacent luxury. Cannot be activated on the same continent as your capital. Essentially, this would be a great person who acts as a settler with an additional gold bonus.
    • Creates a new (randomly selected) city state. Immediately gain 3 envoys with this city state. Activate in a valid city location. City states have a tendency to disappear over the course of the game. Here’s a way to add one.
    • You may purchase Terrestrial and Lagrange Laser Stations with gold in this spaceport (limit once per turn)

    Great Engineers
    • Begin construction of a wonder on this tile, ignoring adjacency requirements.
    • Instantly build a flood barrier in this city (3 charges).
    • Construct a synthetic refinery tile improvement, providing oil resources and production.
    • Found a city on an ocean tile. This city may construct districts on adjacent water tiles.

    Great Writers

    • Gain a great work of writing and an inspiration towards a random _____ era civic.
    • Gain a great work of writing. For the next 50 turns, your government gains an additional wild card policy slot.
    • Gain a great work of writing. You may change governments and policies immediately, ignoring any anarchy that would result from this change.
    • Gain a great work of writing. +10 points towards all current and future great people.
    • Gain a great work of writing. For the next 10 turns, losing military units provides you with culture equal to their combat strength and generates no war weariness.

    Great Artists (Sculpture)

    • Gain a sculpture. +2 tourism from adjacent wonders. (2 charges)
    • Gain a sculpture +400 production towards a wonder on an adjacent tile
    • Gain a sculpture. This district’s adjacency bonus provides production as well as culture.

    Great Artists (Religious)
    • Gain a work of religious art. Spreads 600 pressure of your founded (or majority) religion to cities within 10 tiles. (2 charges)
    • Gain an apostle following this city’s religion and a work of religious art (2 charges).
    • Gain a work of religious art. This district’s adjacency bonus provides faith as well as culture.
    • Gain a work of religious art. Your religion’s worship buildings generate +2 tourism.

    Great Artists (Landscape)
    • Gain a work of landscape art. Tiles adjacent to rivers in this city gain +1 appeal. (2 charges)
    • Create a national park and gain a work of landscape art. (2 charges)
    • Gain a work of landscape art. +2 culture from breathtaking tiles in this city.

    Great Artists (Portrait)
    • Gain a portrait and a governor title.
    • Gain a portrait. Any governor in the process of establishing in this city becomes active immediately (2 charges)
    • Gain a portrait. One adjacent great person gains an additional charge.
    • Gain a portrait and an envoy. (2 charges).

    Great Musicians
    • Gain a great work of music. +25% tourism to civilizations with a city within 6 tiles of this district.
    • Gain a great work of music. Broadcast towers provide 1 amenity from entertainment.
    • Gain a great work of music and a diplomatic victory point.
    • Gain a great work of music and a Rock Band with a free extra promotion.
     
  2. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2020
    Messages:
    356
    Great ideas.

    The Great Merchant that grant 500 gold and +5 era score is a little lame. Golden Age are not too hard once one get familiar of the game.

    Meanwhile, given that many games are won sub T200, that "for the next 50 turns, your government gains an additional wild card policy slot" is a little too strong.

    I like the changes to GWAM in general. "ignoring adjacency requirements" for wonders are too weird.
     
  3. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite King

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    816
    Gender:
    Male
    Each of Writing Works should have its own distinct bonus. Particularly Machiavelli's "The Prince" should add bonus to Machiavellism (Who understood this civic better than Old Nicky himself?)
     
    hhhhhh likes this.
  4. Henri Christophe

    Henri Christophe Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    363
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro, K11 (Kwanza)
    it should have option to us add our Great Persons in this game, I can say a bunch of Great person I'm missing in this game
     
  5. criZp

    criZp Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    1,705
    Location:
    Nidaros, Norway
    Many cool ideas here!
     
  6. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,859
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    Not necessarily sure about the other groups but I can definitely come up with specific Great Writers for these:
    William Shakespeare (already in game)

    Niccolò Machiavelli (already in game)

    Karl Marx? :shifty:

    Mary Shelley (already in game)

    Lord Byron
     
    CoconutTank and hhhhhh like this.
  7. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2020
    Messages:
    356
    Do your Great Writers still have 2 activation? Activating this twice is insanely OP.
     
  8. playshogi

    playshogi Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,455
    I think one way to improve GP is to get rid of Great Musicians who often arrive dozens of turns before there is anything to do with them and whose value is so lame even when you do build broadcast towers.
     
  9. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,859
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    Which is why we need an Opera House building available earlier for more music slots, and writing slots, and let the broadcast towers tie more into rock bands.
     
  10. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,187
    Good ideas, though I was thinking of the great person boost being relatively early game (hence the smaller effect than Nobel). I actually had Pericles funeral oration in mind for the culture from lost units effect, but obviously he's not available as a GP. For the government change without anarchy, the ideal candidate would be someone associated with a return to a past government form, but I don't have any particular examples in mind.

    My thinking is that these great people would have one activation (except where noted otherwise). Others would keep the current functionality of generating 2/3 great works, with the "extra" great works functioning as their special feature.
     
    Alexander's Hetaroi likes this.
  11. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,859
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    In that case maybe Machiavelli would work better for that considering he got his political thinking from studying Classical political philosophy, most notably the classical republics from Greece and Rome.
     
  12. Lonecat Nekophrodite

    Lonecat Nekophrodite King

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    816
    Gender:
    Male
    Actually they should be benefitted from Theatre instead. Broadcast tower comes TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO late.
     
  13. Galvatron

    Galvatron Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    199
    Shouldn't great writers be the civic equivalent version of scientists? I mean some should generate great works maybe, but there's a niche that's not being served.

    Or maybe that should be great philospher.
     
  14. GunsGermsandSteel

    GunsGermsandSteel Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2020
    Messages:
    140
    Gender:
    Male
    Good point. I often run out of space for great works of writing anyway. Would be nice if a few of them did other things besides great works of writing. Or maybe just 1 great work etc.
     
    Galvatron likes this.
  15. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Messages:
    317
    Location:
    Macro Land
    Assuming Lily_Lancer's thread on Great People is still accurate, the expensive then cheaper GPs phenomenon is an intended part of civ 6. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a fair or desirable outcome.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-mechanism-of-great-people.619356/

    I do like seeing new ideas for GPs and what they can do. Giving GWAMs unique abilities like other GPs have would certainly help. Additionally, I think slots for Great Works should be done away with entirely. Instead, buildings and wonders should hold any number of their relevant Great Works, but each Great Work beyond some specified capacity for each building/wonder should have heavily penalized yields and cannot contribute to theming. A soft cap instead of a hard cap so to speak.

    With the exception of some of your proposed abilities, I think I like most of what's on the list (in particular I like the Great Musician abilities).

    I agree that getting Era Score is not particularly interesting, but breaking up the benefit over multiple charges would potentially help. What if for example, this Great Merchant gave +200 gold and +2 Era Score, but had 3 charges instead? This GM would help with smoothing out one's Era Score and be able to contribute in more than one Age if needed. Also, I'm assuming the Taj Mahal's bonus would apply for this GM?

    Constructing a city in the ocean is kind of weird, along with building districts on water out of it. What happens when the city is razed? Will those tiles remain as water? I'm definitely interested in this idea though.

    I agree that being able to get an extra wild policy is very strong, even for 50 turns, but that could be tempered by making this particular GP arrive very late. If the GP is available in the Information Era (or heck the Future Era), I think that would make them much harder to abuse. Or, maybe the bonus could be a extra diplomatic policy slot for the duration instead.

    Being able to gain 2 Apostles and 2 religious works of art sounds rather powerful. That's Mahabodhi Temple but w/out strict placement requirements. I think this GA only having 1 charge would be fine, or else they should spawn Missionaries instead.

    Instantly establishing a Governor sounds like a very weak effect tbh. In order to make use of the effect, the GA would need to spawn at the city you need them to be at, or else they need to travel to the city first. It would probably take maybe 3 or 4 turns for the GA to reach where they need to go in a mid to large sized empire, in which case you'd be shaving off 1 or 2 turns then? Even shaving off 5 turns doesn't seem particularly exciting.

    Which GP gets a bonus charge if multiple GPs are adjacent when this GA is activated?

    I doubt my list will be as well done, but here are some ideas I'd like to add:

    Great Generals
    • Instantly creates a Fighter with 1 promotion level and free maintenance. +3 Combat Strength for all Air Fighter units. Must be used on a tile with available air slots within friendly territory.
    • Instantly creates a Bomber with 1 promotion level and free maintenance. Must be used on a tile with available air slots within friendly territory.
    • Grants +2 of this Strategic resource on this tile per turn.
    • Grants +6 Combat Strength to all military units for 50 turns.

    Great Admirals
    • +1 Spy capacity. Instantly creates a Spy with 1 promotion level.
    • Instantly creates an Aircraft Carrier with 1 promotion level and free maintenance.
    • Gain 500 Gold (on Standard speed). -20% upgrade cost for all naval units.
    • +50 HP to and refreshes all military units within 5 tiles. A refreshed unit gains back its Movement and can take orders, as though it were the start of its turn.

    Great Writers
    • (2 Charges) Creates 1 Great Work of Writing and +50 Great Writer points. This effect could be reused for Great Artists and/or Great Musicians, basically a Great Person that serves as an inspiration to subsequent GPs.
    • (3 Charges) Creates 1 Great Work of Writing. Each Great Work created by this Great Writer also provides +1 Amenity, in addition to its other effects.
    • (1 Charge) Creates 1 Great Work of Writing. This Theater Square's adjacency bonuses gains an additional Science bonus.

    Great Artists (Portrait)
    • (3 Charges) Creates 1 Great Work of Art (Portrait). Each Great Work created by this Great Artist also provides +2 Culture and +2 Tourism if there was another Great Person within the city's territory, in addition to its other effects.

    Great Artists (Landscape)
    • (1 Charge) Creates 1 Great Work of Art (Landscape). Other civs at war with you accumulate 50% more war weariness than usual.
    • (3 Charges) Creates 1 Great Work of Art (Landscape). Each Great Work created by this Great Artist also provides +2 Culture and +2 Tourism if the city has a Natural Wonder or a National Park, in addition to its other effects.
     
    Amrunril likes this.
  16. Amrunril

    Amrunril Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,187
    Yeah, to me it seems like an unintended or unconsidered consequence of an intended mechanic. Personally, I'm not sure the mechanic is needed. Base costs already vary by era, so if great people from future eras are being earned too fast, they could just modify this scaling instead of adding another multiplier on top of it. Or, if they are going to keep it, perhaps increased costs could start ticking back down once the era advances? Of course, with 4 or 5 great people per era or type, instead of 3, the issue would come up a lot less often, though it probably wouldn't go away completely.
     
    CoconutTank likes this.
  17. Aurelesk

    Aurelesk Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2017
    Messages:
    277
    Gender:
    Male
    Why not giving the same treatment to Great Prophets? Sure it means:
    • To allow to recruit more than 1 Prophet in the game.
    • To create a new way to found a Religion. The Prophets can still create one, but someone could have a Pingoracle strategy, recruit all Prophets and deny a religion this way.
    You can't buy a religious unit in a city without a religion. We either need to create a new unit dedicated to create a religion, or allow an existing religious unit to be religionless (purchasable without religion) and able to create a religion. I am more for the latter option: let the Gurus be religionless and add them the ability to create a religion. It means you need to either do a Prophet rush or a Temple rush.

    Here some ideas for some new abilities:
    • Confucius: Gain the Eureka! for Archery, Wheel, Writing and Mathematics, and Inspiration for Mysticism and Drama & Poetry.
    • John the Baptist: Holy Site near a River and a Oasis gain major adjacency bonuses, and standard adjacency bonus from Lake tiles.
    • Laozi: Can create two Great Works of Writing: "Tao - the Way" and "Te - the Virtue". They also yield Faith equal to Culture.
    • Siddhartha Gautama: Old growth forrest tiles yield +1 Faith in the city, +1 additionnal Faith if breathtaking or unimproved.
    • Simon Peter: Create 1 Apostle. +3 theological combat strength to all religious units.
    • Zoroaster: Tiles near Mountain yield +1 Faith in the city, +1 additionnal Faith if breathtaking or unimproved.
    • Adi Shankara: Create 2 Gurus. +1 charge to all Gurus.
    • Bodhidharma: Create 2 Warrior Monks. They start with 1 Promotion.
    • O No Yasumaro: Can create two Great Works of Writing: "Kojiki" and "Nihon Shoki". They also yield Faith equal to Culture.
    • Songstan Gamp: Tiles pillaged or destroyed by a Natural DIsasters in the city yield 1 Faith.
    • Haji Huud: Create 4 Misionnaries. +1 charge to all Missionnaries.
    • Madhva Acharya: Gain 500 Faith. +200% passive spread to this Holy Site.
    • Martin Luther: Each religious spread to other civilization's cities yields -5 Loyalty.
    • Thomas Aquinas: Gain 250 Science. This Campus's adjacency bonuses gain an additionnal Faith bonus.
    • Francis of Assisi: Active: 500 Faith, Wounded units can heal +5 HP per turn. Passive: +20 HP Healing for all units within one tile.
    I wonder if the GWAM really need unique abilities. They could have 2 bland one and allow you to either go for the Great Works or the other one. For example:
    • Great Writer: Give 1 Inspiration. Since they have 2 charges, you could either give 2 GWoW, 2 Inspirations or 1 of each.
    • Great Artist: Build a Landmark tile improvement yielding 2 Culture, 1 Amenity and +1 Appeal. Since they have 3 charges, you could either give 3 GWoA, 3 landmarks or a mix of each.
    • Great Musician: Create a Rock Band. Since they have 2 charges, you could either give 2 GWoM, 2 Rock Bands or 1 of each. But this seems too powerful.
    Sure it is still bland, and allow Russia to be even more terrifying.

    The same could be done to all Great People. For example, the Engineer could all have Production toward Wonders, all Great Scientist could all have 2 Eureka! to give, all Great Merchant could all give a sum of Gold + 1 Envoy (or Governor's promotion?) bonus and so on... but you can choose the unique ability instead.
     
    Alexander's Hetaroi and hhhhhh like this.
  18. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,859
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    I do think Great Prophets do need the most work out of all of the Great People considering they are the only ones that aren't unique from one another besides having different names. At least the Great Writers, Artists, and Musicians create different Great works.

    What I think they should do is still only let the Great Prophets create a religion with one of their charges. They could also have another charge based with different abilities like the ones you mentioned.
    If all the religions have been founded by the time you receive a Great Prophet you can still activate it's other ability.
     
  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    I'll suggest a few; several of these are already in game.

    Thomas Aquinas

    Homer

    Alfred, Lord Tennyson

    Michelangelo

    Rembrandt van Rijn

    Anthony van Dyck

    Billie Holiday

    The Andrews Sisters or Vera Lynn

    ...Man, it's a shame Elvis Presley is under copyright.
     
    Amrunril likes this.
  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,859
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Texas
    Are there any possible Great Musicians, based off of rock and roll, that wouldn't be under copyright?
     

Share This Page