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Improving some FFH wonders

Discussion in 'Wildmana Modmod' started by Imuratep, Jan 30, 2010.

  1. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

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    As it is a goal of Wildmana to make civics that are not that useful compared to other a bit better I think it would also be good to improve some of the Worldwonders that lack power compared to others. In BtS nearly every wonder is something you want to achieve as they give you great boni (which makes Industrious a lot of stronger in Vanilla BtS than in FFH. I almost always remove Industrious from Cassiel's Philosophical/Industrious combo. In BtS this combination is considered too strong to be in the game). Not so in FFH. Some are really fantastic, but some are rather weak. Especially Soul Forge, Temple of Temporance, Mokka's Cauldron and Catacombs Libralus could be improved without big efforts.
    Temple of Temporance essentially mirrors Notre Dame both flavorwise as mechanicwise. In BtS Notre Dame was improved to grant +2 :) in every city increasing the value of the wonder a lot. The same could be done for Temple of Temporance.

    The abilities of Mokka's Cauldron and Soul Forge are fine, but as you won't have enough production in a city in that their abilities are relevant you essentially need an Engineer + a Disciple/Great Bard to use it effectively. Mokka's Cauldron could be an equipment like Syliven's Perfect Harp or Dragon's Hoard (which would make a lot of sense). Even if the Cauldron is quite big - so is The Dragon's Hoard.

    For Soul Forge it would not make a lot of sense to be equipable. You could allow that its effect counts every defeated unit in your borders which would be quite strong but IMHO still fair as Soul Forge is a lategame wonder and production values during this game phase are anyway quite high (about 60-70 hammers per turn should not be a rarity) Thus you need about 5 units to be killed to accelerate your production by 1 turn. You could count slaves sacrificed for production as killed units. IMHO would make a lot of sense flavorwise and should not be too strong. You could at least increase the radius for it to trigger by 1 or 2 as right now it only works if a unit within 1 tile radius dies.

    Catacomb Libralus would be fine if you didn't need a Mage Guild to build it. But as adepts are anyway quite expensive you will only have about 2 or 3 cities that will have enough production to make it worthwhile building adepts you could just build three mage guilds in those cities investing less production for the same effect. The sideeffect of the wonder (+4 :science: and :culture: and one sciencist slot) IMHO is not big enough to justify the costs. This could be solved easily: Either remove the requirement of a Mage Guild to build the wonder or improve Mage Guilds so they are also useful in cities without a good production rate by adding something like +2 :science: per Mage Guild or at least 1 sage slot. Or add another sideeffect to the wonder like arcane units built in the city with the Catacomb gain an additional free promotion or something similar.
     
  2. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    great post and great suggestions. I think that catacomb libralus NOT needing a mage guild makes sense. why should I need to built it if I'm gonna get it for free after the wonder? :lol:
     
  3. TowerWizard

    TowerWizard Chieftain

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    Good post! I have thought the same things regarding Libralus. I second the idea that Mage Guilds should increase Sage slots by one and the idea that a Mage Guild should not be needed to build the Wonder.

    +2 :) per city is a bit much. +1 :) is enough in my book!

    I have rarely built Soul Forge or Mokkas Couldron. I think they are too hard to make good use of. Some shanges are definetly needed, at least regarding the Soul Forge.
     
  4. Imuratep

    Imuratep Cultist of the Old Ones

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    As I already said Notre Dame in BtS has the same effect (=+2 :)) and isn't broken compared to the other BtS wonders. Of course if you can find another effect that fits the wonder post it. Just wanted to keep the changes simple. I have other ideas for Soul Forge that are bit more complicated, but very flavorful. A special unit the "Soul Collector" that can only be build in the city with the Soul Forge wonder and that triggers the Soul Forge effect when he kills units OR if you want to emphasize the flavor gets an "Empower"-promotion each time he kills a unit that can be removed in the City with the Soul Forge wonder to trigger its effect. Combine it with the Force II promotion and the unit should be quite effective. But as I think Sephi only wants to tweak the values, not to make something new I prefer the small changes from my first post.
     
  5. Neomega

    Neomega Chieftain

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    I like mage guilds giving 1 or two beakers, and/or catacomb libralus giving a free promotion, maybe even 2 xp.

    I also like making mokka's cauldron equipment... that would make it pretty awesome.

    I build catacomb libralus though. 4 extra beakers is still a lot in the early game.
     
  6. Eshnunna

    Eshnunna Chieftain

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    I recall something about that wonder having a moderate chance to give random promos from mana spheres you had access to, to adepts built in the city. It gave a feeling of über magic city, which was nice.

    Should the loss of requirement for a mage guild slightly increase the hammer cost of the wonder for it not to become a no-brainer à la great library (BTS)


    In the case of Mokka, this discussion was brought up a great many number of times already... Besically the wonder would be horribly OP if equippable, but is just horribly useless if not ("emphasization" intended).

    Might that be a sign that a complete redesign would be required ?
     
  7. [to_xp]Gekko

    [to_xp]Gekko QCT junkie

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    Mokka's cauldron has to be a piece of equipment. if it's OP like that, nerf it, but keep it an equipment. and it should start in the hands of Mokka in the same way as Orthus' Axe. Maybe Mokka could be a big random baddy like the apes and stuff when the Illians are not around?
     
  8. Neomega

    Neomega Chieftain

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    Why not just skeletons instead of flesh golems?
     
  9. readercolin

    readercolin Chieftain

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    Actually, how about this as a change to Mokka's Cauldron.

    Can be equipment. When in a city, Mokka's Cauldron gives 1 death mana and allows the construction of abominations (new unit, use pit beast art or something else if you find it) that have strength 8 and cannibalize, say melee unitclass? Abominations are constructed by units nearby dying, or feeding slaves to the cauldron (for a price of course). Stats can of course be tweaked depending upon playtesting or debate, but it gets away from the OPness of dozens of flesh golems. On the other hand, they would be more useful than skeletons at that late a point in the game. When it is equipment however, it changes from units killed around it to units that the carrier kills become abominations. Now however, you can't feed slaves to it, and you loose the source of death mana, but you can move it between cities or still get abominations while attacking instead of just when your opponent comes to you.

    -Colin
     

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