Incas in Earth 1000AD scenario

Padmewan

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I am on vacation (yea!) but away from Civ IV (boo!), but just before I left I started the Earth 1000AD scenario playing as the Incas, on Noble difficulty. The scenario turns out to be rather similar to the "Age of Discovery" Conquest from C3C, except there's no special tech tree or "sacrifice" culture for the Native American civs. Since the Incas start with very little tech, and no one but the Aztecs to trade techs with until someone (in my case, the Chinese) sends a caravel their way, my guess is that the only victory possible for the Incas is Cultural (particularly because they are Financial).

The Incas also start stuck west of the Andes, which means there are sites for about 4 cities, 2 of them mediocre to poor, before they need to sail around the mountains, either north or south, to develop in the Amazon or Pampas. You start with 2 settlers, and I settled one SW of the starting point so it would be coastal, and another in the hills NW of there (leaving enough room for one more N of that point, and then 1 b/t the two copper sources). Without religion, the only early means of cultural expansion is libraries, though I probably should have researched Theaters sooner, esp. if going for cultural victory. (Border expansion was important to me because of reaching resources and pushing back the fog of war in the Amazon).

If you decide to move your settlers rather than plant immediately, take advantage of that first turn to switch civics, since you start with Bureaucracy enabled (which I took), even though you don't have Civil Service.

I began researching Roads > Pottery, THEN sailing, since I didn't think I should expand around the Andes until I had all 4 starting cities planted (this may be a mistake?). Once you get around the Andes, you theoretically can occupy all of South America, but you have to focus on expansion at the cost of research, and you are already starting well behind the other Civs. My original plan was to adopt the cottage-spam approach with all that "free" land, but you start with enough of a barbarian presence, and with the ongoing threat of European invasion, that I believed I needed a strong military backup for my units. This was probably a mistake, as the barbarians in South America proved weak (Chichen Itza, a Central American barbarian city, required quite some force to subdue, however), and I should have expanded more aggressively. Also, all foreign powers proved "Friendly," probably because I was so weak, and Elizabeth and another civ even gifted me a tech each for no reason other than pity (?).

I probably also should have built a 1.5:1 worker:city ratio, as the Amazon is a mess to settle.

The Pampas in the south are more attractive to settle than the northern coast in many ways (they are temperate), but when the Europeans show up they will try to settle the north first, so I don't know whether I should aim to "box out" the invaders or just go for better quality land.

Also, the only Wonder you seem to have a shot at is the Colossus, since all the non-American civs seem unable to build it (it's disconcerting, though, to see early in the game an entire string of messages about Wonders being built in unknown cities when you don't even have the techs leading up to those Wonders!). Since I was whipping up improvements pretty heavily, I really didn't have much of a GP farm, and so the Wonder was important if only to generate some GP's (though for a culture victory, great merchants are not so useful, except maybe in this scenario to keep science up).

So, anyone out there tackle the Earth 1000AD scenario as Incas (or Aztecs) have any thoughts on possible victory conditions as well as priority tech's, builds, settling, etc.? Is a cultural victory possible, or is pulling the "switch" to 100% so late that there's no way to beat the AI as they go spaceship? Also, why is it that the civs are so friendly to me and to each other (it seems) -- even "worst enemies" seem to have fairly neutral feelings. Is it because I'm playing Noble, because the only PC civ is so weak, or am I missing something? Would the Incas be better off with more wars (among OTHER civs - I don't think I can survive a full-scale Spanish invasion!).

I won't be able to play for almost a week, but when I get back I want to be ready to tackle this fun challenge!
 
I've played that scen as aztecs (noble) and it was real pain after the europeans started to colonize america. They are so much ahead in tech, but maybe some hardcore #s#licking could help. Anyway, they just came and ruined me because I didn't lick. =)

And second game at settler difficulty I managed to settle whole N.America before europeans and get a close time victory.
 
I played the Incan scenario on monarch level. The first time through I expanded like mad from the beginning, and end up in the red with 8 cities, took like 50 turns to research pottery. Second time through I expanded only to about 4 cities (at which point my research dropped to 50%), so I then stopped there until I got pottery and currency, then I expanded fast and spam cottages. I didn't win the game at the end, unfortunately, AI got a space race victory, but I was ahead of Malinese and the Aztecs by about a couple of hundred points. You are right about the European powers taking pity on my primitive society, almost all the civs gift some techs to me, even though some of them were annoyed with each other.
 
Good to hear that this scenario isn't EASY... I wonder if it's even mathematically possible to pull off a victory as Incans at Noble. My guess is still that it has to be done by Culture, since at Noble+ the AI will surely build the spaceship before time runs out.

Mutax, what victory condition were you shooting for?
 
Padmewan said:
Good to hear that this scenario isn't EASY... I wonder if it's even mathematically possible to pull off a victory as Incans at Noble. My guess is still that it has to be done by Culture, since at Noble+ the AI will surely build the spaceship before time runs out.

Mutax, what victory condition were you shooting for?

I had a hell of a time with Aztecs on Noble as well. I managed to fill up pretty much all of North America (the Spanish got one city in), but there's just not enough time to turn it around and make all those new cities productive.

I'm not sure how you could pull off culture -- the Incans don't start with a religion, do they? And Wonders are pretty much out of the question for either of the American civs. So commerce-based culture is your only shot, and getting 3 cities to produce > 50,000 culture with commerce alone (you might be able to get the +100% civic bonus eventually, but far too late to matter) is going to be almost impossible.

I honestly have no idea how to win with here. I think I'm going to make it my new challenge, though. =)
 
I was aiming for space ship or UN victory, but I guess it is virtually impossible at monarch, since AI is no dummy at that level. Maybe I will try the scenario next on noble, I think play Inca for their traits (financial), and will colonize the Aztecs land (lots of forests, no jungle to clear). And if the Aztecs block my early expansion, I will wipe them first. Unfortunately, 1000 years would not be enough time for all the cottages to mature, so your best bet is to mix it with GP strategy (i.e. run caste system, representation once you have it, and have many scientist in those food rich cities).
 
1000 years is not enough to mature the cottages? Sorry, I never really did the math on those guys -- how long DOES it take? You only need THREE cities with cottage-spam to pull this off, and despite all the jungles, the Amazon is FULL of rivers for massive commerce. One of those cities will probably be the capital, regardless of its crappy location, and I'd say another would be in the SE quadrant of the Pampas... In fact now that I think about it I probably should have ignored the northern coast and let Spain take it.

I VERY quickly picked up 3 religions upon contact with Europe / China, so if you're quick to put up monastaries, I think building 9 temples for 3 cathedrals is possible... also, as I mentioned, you can grab the Colossus (i'm curious if it's better than Astronomy-based port trading for commerce/culture). If you follow walkerjks' guide to cultural wins, by cranking down to Noble maybe it's possible to nail the victory by concentrating entirely on Great Artists -- the problem is that you need to beeline for drama early to get theaters up for those artist specialists, and meanwhile you desperately need other techs, too, for defense and $$$.

So, let's focus here. For sake of this discussion let's assume Noble, which I prefer because you're even with the AI resource-wise and the other civs already get such a crazy head start.

1. Is culture a viable victory condition? (Are the other ones viable as well?)
2. Where should cities be founded, and in what order? Which ones should be the culture centers, and which the specialist and military centers?
3. What build order to follow, a/k/a how quickly to expand? As Mutax described, expanding too quickly leads to bankruptcy, but maybe that's OK if you're spending those "useless" research turns developing cottages.
4. What techs are critical, in what order? Remember that your first trading partner will be the Aztecs, so consider what they can give you to boost your own research.
5. What's the minimum necessary to deal with barbs and foreign powers? I found that so far (c. 1500) on Noble all foreign powers see me as an object of pity rather than conquest, but then again I just met Isabella for the first time and she was the first to settle in South America. (Out of curiosity, I wonder if the game could be run entirely by AI whether it would reproduce recent world history).
 
Aztecs

Trundle posted a link to this thread, since I said in the 1000AD thread that I would try out the Aztecs.

Ugh. Glad I wasn't the Incas.

As the Aztecs(Prince) here's what I did.

1) Sent out my scout-warriors to get rid of the cloud of doom. No barbarians for me. Very Important to do this.

2) Chop Rushed Settlers. Not that I expanded immediately with them, but I had them. Prevent Defense.

For victory conditions, I found cultural to not be viable. I just couldn't get enough religions and theaters quickly enough.

Cities.

There are two prime locations on the US East Coast. Also, the Amazon Jungle is prime when cleared.

When the Euro Powers colonize, you have a numbers advantage, I'd use it.

Critical Techs -- Deforestization/Junglization. Cottages. Economy

I kept all but Izzy off of NA. Switched to Christianity as soon as I could. Got massive tech stuff from EuroTrash. PA with Izzy, diplomatic win
 
Just pulled off a spaceship vicotry as the Incas on prince. A 2049 AD spaceship victory, but a victory nonetheless :)

I think I got more lucky than anything, as the AIs spent alot of time fighting each other, and no one was able to get the upper hand.

Summary:
1. I only built one city west of the Andes. It was on the spot with access to both corn spaces, the gold, and the silver. I then went straight for sailing, and built a galley.

2. I sent the second starting settler to the east side of the Andes, with all the troops/workers (after improving the capital completely). City number two was founded east of the Andes a little after 1200 AD.

3. I then made way to drama, as theaters give the culture needed for border expansion, and they cost much less than libraries. The first couple of cities founded chopped their way to their theater.

4. The capital only produced settlers/workers/military for the cities east of the Andes. I did not improve the capital until much later. I planned on beating on Uncle Monty to the north, but never got around to it.

5. I started sending settlers around the north side of the Andes, and started builing cities along the Caribbean coast. Pretty soon I had all of the coast covered, blocking out the Europeans.

6. After drama, I targeted optics. I was torn between going for banking or optics, but chose optics earlier so I could get the line of sights set up for later trade routes. It takes FOREVER to explore the world, so I opted to start early.

7. R & D got as low as 50% before I got to banking, then it started to climb back to 70-80%.

8. I didn't really do anything with religion or great people. I did get a great merchant early on, which I sent on a trade mission to London, netting a cool 1700 gold.

9. I managed to close the tech gap with the Europeans by researching biology. No one else seemed to do this, so I had an exclusive. I traded it around and got steel, physics, etc, which I then passed around and got more stuff with. I fell behind again quickly, but aggresively traded anything with anyone for anything.

10. I kept getting great engineers as GP, and used them to rush build national and world wonders. I managed to get the UN, and when I failed to get an early diplomatic victory, and the space elevator.

11. In 2045, I found it would take 7 turns to build the final component of the spaceship. I got a great engineer, which I added as a great person to the city. I had to chop forests (!) to get the hammers needed to complete the stasis chamber before 2050.

I got pretty lucky, not sure if I could do it again.....
 
Wow - congrats on getting to space. Forest-chops are very handy for tight spaceraces, as is workshop spam/mass-starvation to squeeze out those couple extra turns.

The secret to coming from behind in CivIV is fomenting discord among your betters. Since Saladin starts the scenario at war with the Euro-civs, this shouldn't be too hard to do. China and Japan are also natural rivals.

I've only played Mongols (great fun!) and the English in this scenario, both on Emperor and both winning mid-1900's space races. As the English, I ended up with all South America to myself, including 4 former barb cities. The south has tons of food, the east an incredible density of minerals, and the north a good mix. The main thing would be building plenty of workers.
 
Woo!

Not only did I win playing Monty, but I won my first ever diplomatic win. This was all on Monarch, btw.

Pulled it off in 1940. I have a few pointers, if anyone's looking to duplicate/improve:

1) Expand like crazy. Ignore the dropping science slider. You're so far behind in tech it doesn't matter anyway. Expand up the eastern USA first (taking barb cities with your starting jags).
2) Build courthouses ASAP -- I chop rushed a library (culture) and courthouse in pretty much every city I built. Courthouses are the only way you're going to recover that dipping science rate.
3) Make your way to Banking (Mercantilism) and Constitution (Representation) as quickly as possible. With this many cities, it provides a huge boost. In addition, Constitution ties into the next point...
4) Pick out obscure techs to research. I made a pretty decent profit trading Constitution/Democracy, and a huge one trading Biology/Medicine.
5) If you have any intentions of a diplo victory, put all those excess resources to good use. There are way more resources in North America than you could ever use (or even trade for profit). I gifted one spare resource out to all the AIs early on, which got my "We appreciate the years you've supplied us with resources" rating up pretty high by the end.
6) If you manage to fill up the whole continent, you can pretty much ignore your military. The strongest units I ever built/had were macemen and Longbowmen. I never built a single ship (except workboats). I let all the AIs come to me.

If I were going to do it again (and I might =), I could probably improve on a few things. For starters, I started building cottages way too late. I still had mainly villages/hamlets through the 1800's. With all that grassland, I should have been capitalizing on them much earlier. On the other hand, all those farms I built gave me massive population for the UN race... I still think I would have been better off with a higher cottage - farm ratio.

Second, I spent a long time researching Civil Service because I had this crazy idea that Bureaucracy would help me out. But mainly what it did was mean that my capital was building too fast for its own good (because tech was so slow) most of the game. I'd still want civil service (and Bureaucracy) eventually, but I should have picked up a bunch of the cheaper techs first.

Third, although diplomacy worked out for me, I think if I had been playing on anything above Monarch I might have blown it. I didn't choose a faction to support; I just indiscriminately traded with everyone. If I were playing on a higher difficulty, I would probably just ally myselves with the Europeans/Chinese from the beginning and snub poor Saladin.

Space may have been a possibility (I might load an autosave and try it), but it would have been pretty tight, I think. I just picked up Rocketry on the last turn, and it's already 1940...

All in all, I'm pretty happy. Beat the challenge I set for myself this weekend, and it's not even Saturday. =)

[Editted to scale down image]
 

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Okay, more on my Monty Start

I love the Coastal starts. I find midgame they help a bunch. So here's how I started.

1) Sent 1 Jagaur Warrior over to Chichen Izta. Blocking action, he fortified in the jungle diagonal to their city.
2) Sent 2 Jaguar Warriors Northward. 1 popped a goody hut for 68 gold, and then continued to the Great Lakes, where a Barbarian City one. He was fortified in the forest and gained experience. The other Jaguar went east and found a Barb City where Atlanta would be. He fortifies in the forest, the AI attacks, loses, and eventually Jaguar takes the city. Then the other Jaguar takes the Great Lakes City

The other settler is still sleeping in my capital

Both workers were sent to chop rush in the forests in my cultural bounds. I choose to start with producing the oracle. Culture expands right after my first chop rush (which they also produced mines in those hills). I sent them to the forests now in my cultural border, and got the Oracle. Took Civil Service for the bureaucracy civic.

Where I'm at after the beginning strategy
3 cities. I am cottage spamming my two american cities, to get them profitable. Technoctilan is my military city, and it is producing jaguar warriors every two turns. I'm losing 2 gold a turn at 100% research

Once they get profitable, I will produce two more workers, and conquer Chichen once I get iron working. My sleeping settler will colonize the new york area, and i hope this chokes European expansion into the American new world.
 
Ok how about this as Monty...

1. Build capital 2N from starting place. Switch to caste system.
1a. Research wheel then sailing then alphabet
2. Chop rush Oracle with both workers. Choose feudalism for freebie.
3. Send second settler to East Coast (Washington DC area)
4. Use the Jags to smash barbarians at Atlanta. Burn city
5. Use the Jags to smash barbarians at Chicago. Keep city.
6. Still under caste, choose two scientists in Chicago. Send one of the workers up to Chicago after Oracle is chop rushed to irrigate corn to get food production up to support scientists.
7. At Washington DC site, build a galley & a scout. Send him south to talk to the Incas. Swap feudalism with Capac for civil service.
8. Use first scientist to get philosophy
9. Trade philosophy to Incas for currency or metal casting, etc

The Incas make a good tech trading partners. Research what they do not, and trade so the both of you have both. You can almost catch up to Europe this way.

I like the Oracle, but prophets for the Aztecs do little to help. Scientists and engineers are way more useful.

Yes this is bogus...I know too much about the world because I played as the Incas previously, and got to explore the entire world then, so I have information I shouldn't have now. Oh well....
 
Well, I kept Atlanta, and its turned out to be a hell of a city site.

Anyways, allow me to catch you guys up on my game.
The year is now 1820. I am 4-5 techs behind Europe. I've got gunpowder, banking etc.

After having Chicago, Atlanta, and my capital (see the last post) I decided military expansion, then cultural expansion, would serve me best. I produced JW to beat back the fog o war, and stationed two near chichen itza to keep its denizens from bothering me.

Got all the way down to 70% science, but I had founded Boston (that area), and Quebec, and Denver. Denver is a hella good site if you site it right.

I used libraries to culturally expand (which helped my research), contacted the incas, and did some tech trading.

Im now sitting at +20 gpt @ 80% science, a combined arms army of pikemen, long/cross, and a few gunmen, and jaguars still in northern canada for fog control.

Oh, and when my workers finished their tasks, I took chichen and turned it into a good port. Islam has spread to 4 cities now, and I adopted it. Its only hurt relations with isabella, but then thats to be expected. However, my power level is nearing Frederick's level, so in a few years I should be fine.

My goal is to catch up enough to get the United Nations and go for a diplomatic win
 
I played as the Inca once, there was a barbarian city near to Montevideo (check your Atlas) which when I was about to claim, the English walked in with a Explorer. I decided to sign away half my assests to the English in exchange for Astronomy, then I went off to Australia and fight Japan for control of Indonesia.

My advice to the scenerio is that the war will not be won in the Americas.
 
Well, my game ground to a halt, probably due to some kind of memory leak, so I've abandoned this scenario for now. Anyway, off topic, this article about early Peruvian irrigation is interesting for anyone who cares about "real life" connections to Civ: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/03/science/03peru.html
 
I'm a few turns away from victory playing as Mansa/Noble... a tough start in Africa, but a lot easier than the Americas partly because you can make contact so early with the other civs. I think a higher and more aggressive AI would have left me toast, but once you spread out and occupy all of Africa, Mansa's financial trait is powerful.

The setup is pretty cool, too -- you start with a buttload of skirmishers and two settlers, and you need to capture the barbarian city to your west (Saladin will capture the other one, but if you're lucky it will culture-flip to you eventually) and then another one all the way east almost on the Persian Gulf. Dedicate your capital to GP-farming and otherwise go for cottage-spam except the couple of cities that are sitting on hills and, all the way southeast, forests. Be sure to grab the northeast coast of S. America too, or you will not have access to aluminum for the space race, if that is your path (diplomacy can work too, but the whole manipulation of AI alliances is too much for me).

Definitely focus your research on areas the AI tends to avoid -- Printing Press, critical to the cottage-spam strategy, netted me ~5 techs from different AI's and got me back into the game. I'm still not 100% caught up with the leading AI, but it doesn't matter now -- I nabbed both the 3 Gorges Dam and the Space Elevator thanks to Financial and the Kremlin (another critical Wonder and technology for trading).

I am thinking of going back and trying Incas again with this strategy, but they start so much further behind than Mansa that I'm not sure it will work. I'm sorta feeling ready to try my hand at Elizabeth and the world at war setup.
 
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