Industrial Unit Graphics

You've got to feel sorry for old Kaiser Willy - he'd built 25 or so predreadnoughts to allow him to challenge the RN in the North Sea and the British went and made them all obsolete by introducing HMS Dreadnaught and resetting the game.

Having said that the complacency and hubris of the British, terrible leadership of the battlecruiser fleet by Beatty, weak armour and poor ammunition discipline of the battlecruisers cost the British dearly when they came to blows with the High Seas fleet
 
Good point. At the end of the day, we Brits ruled the waves up to WW2 and slightly beyond. The reich(s) could never match us.
 
techumseh said:
The Imperial German fleet was a first class navy, outnumbered but not defeated. Scuttled but not surrendered. I would've loved to see the look on Jellicoe's face when they opened the sea cocks!
Click to expand...

Very true, but by all accounts the British were secretly relieved that the thorny question of distributing the German capitol ships amongst their maritime rivals France, Italy and the US was solved without affecting Britain's numerical supremacy.

@CurtSibling I'm not sure Britain ruled the waves beyond about 1943; the US Navy at the end of WW2 was much stronger. In fact Britain's naval supremacy was effectively ended between the Wars after the various naval treaties that ended the insane battleship-building races that the UK could no longer afford. All but 10 of the battleships I've drawn on the previous page and the 5 most recent battlecruisers were scrapped.
 
We still have one of the world's leading navies. China has one 2nd hand aircraft carrier, instance.
As I am sure you know. Today's power is measured by projection. Our subs can nuke anyone, anywhere.
That counts as real power in my book.

Anyway, I am not wanting to help this thread become a debate. We can do that elsewhere.
 
Fairline said:
Very true, but by all accounts the British were secretly relieved that the thorny question of distributing the German capitol ships amongst their maritime rivals France, Italy and the US was solved without affecting Britain's numerical supremacy.

@CurtSibling I'm not sure Britain ruled the waves beyond about 1943; the US Navy at the end of WW2 was much stronger. In fact Britain's naval supremacy was effectively ended between the Wars after the various naval treaties that ended the insane battleship-building races that the UK could no longer afford. All but 10 of the battleships I've drawn on the previous page and the 5 most recent battlecruisers were scrapped.
Click to expand...

Did the RN or the IJN have greater relative naval power between 1941 and 1943, out of curiosity?
 
That's difficult to assess I suppose, because they were built to carry out very different roles by 1942-43. Japan of course had built a navy pretty much entirely based on its carrier attack capability to take on the US in the Pacific, whereas by this time Britain's naval strength was based largely on its convoy-escort and anti-sub capability, with a crapload of destroyers, sloops, corvettes and escort carriers. That's not to say the British didn't have a large carrier force, particularly by the end of the war; the later carriers had all been designed to withstand heavy air attack as they were envisioned operating under German and Italian air cover. This inevitably compromised the number of aircraft they could carry relative to the Japanese or US carriers, although their armoured flight decks and hangers proved a boon when they finally faced the Japanese Kamikazes in 1945. It's difficult to imagine a situation prior to the defeat of Germany where Britain would have been able to amass its carrier strength in sufficient numbers and with sufficient escorts to take on the Japanese in the Pacific, without compromising its convoy-escort role in the Atlantic and Arctic, so it's largely an academic question.

If you ignore that and compare like with like, the British carriers were far more durable than their US or Japanese counterparts, but far more were needed to amass the same number of aircraft to take on an opponent in a a full-on carrier vs carrier battle. This also ignores the fact that until they received US naval aircraft, the RN aircraft were vastly inferior to their Japanese counterparts
 
CurtSibling said:
We still have one of the world's leading navies. China has one 2nd hand aircraft carrier, instance.
As I am sure you know. Today's power is measured by projection. Our subs can nuke anyone, anywhere.
That counts as real power in my book.

Anyway, I am not wanting to help this thread become a debate. We can do that elsewhere.
Click to expand...


Yes, get off your best shot and declare the debate over. An old trick, but not so fast! Nothing wrong with a little historical debate on SL, it has seen many in the past. The High Seas Fleet may be home to eels, but the Grand Fleet has been turned into overpasses and auto parts. As for China, they are just getting started on a fleet. I doubt if they are quaking in their boots about the 2 QE class carriers. Far be it for me to advocate massive and unsustainable military expenditures at the expense of vital social programs, but I think Britain is just about tapped out in terms of naval expansion.
 
Well, as I said projection is the name of the modern war game. We can nuke them. They can't nuke us. That's what makes them quake.
And If you think China has serious ideas about challenging current Western naval power, that is merely so much internet gas. They are
not war mongers, they are logical super villains, playing the long strategy game. It's the West who makes rash moves, to be honest.
 
And with that, I am tapping out. Political/military debates are boring as hell.
Too much like the foolishness going on in OT.
I suggest anyone wanting that sort of experience to head over there.
 
I probably shouldn't weigh into this, but what the hell, it passes the time :)

The Chinese are being set up by our political masters as the next bogey man to take over from 'Terrorists' and before that 'Communists' (and before that Germans / French / insert as appropriate for the era) to distract us from more important concerns, like an equitable distribution of resources and a planet on the verge of catastrophic climate change. They are no better or worse than all the empires that have proceeded them, including ours and the American's - ultimately they'll do whatever they have to to assert economic and military dominance while ensuring that resources and power are deployed in their favour. We were no different in the 19th Century, as were the French / Spanish / Roman / Aztec etc etc empires before us, and the American one after us. Personally I'd rather not chuck nukes at them and avoid jingoistic sabre-rattling which only serves to distract from the things that really matter in our own countries, like a well-funded NHS for example. Orwell had it right in 1984 with his concept of eternal enemies keeping the masses focused on external 'threats' to avoid noticing more important problems.

Here's some units (does that cover me posting OT nonsense in this thread :) )

fairline Boers.png
 
My last comment, then I too will stand down. I agree with Gareth about the amoral self-interest of major powers and empires. Also that western propaganda consistently creates and amplifies external threats to justify massive military expenditures an foreign adventures- the "rash moves" as Curt correctly says. I certainly do not agree that China is incapable of "nuking" Britain. Last time I looked, they had a number of modern nuclear-tipped ICBMs capable of hitting just about any target in the world.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It lies sunk120 meters deep at the Kea straight. Jaques Cousteau found it in 1975. It is too deep for recreational diving.
 
Wiw said:
I took Fairline's Titanic sprite and modified it to be its sister ship, the hospital ship Britannic.
1rgMWs0.png
Click to expand...

WiW? From the TheorySpark games forums?
 
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