Info Poll: Which of these deals do you favor with Greece?

[eyrei]

With a peace renegotiation, we can get more out of Greece than we had originally planned. Here are the options:

Option 1
We give: Gems, peace and a MPP
They give: steam power, 912 gold and 46 gpt.

Option 2
We give: Gems, peace and a MPP
They give: 97 gpt and steam power

Option 3
We give: Gems, peace and a MPP
They give: 913 gold, 205 gpt

This is an informational poll, and is contingent on the results for signing a MPP with Greece in the first place being positive.

 

[eyrei]

I think this is a prime oppurtunity to trade for steam power, especially since we can no longer pay gpt for techs. I prefer option 2, primarily because I would like the Greeks to be able to upgrade their military for the war they are fighting with the Persians. We do not want the Persians rolling over them, and the only advantage the Greeks will have is the quality of their units. It would be nice to have the cash, but they need it far more than we do at the moment.

 

[Chieftess]

I'm kind of torn though, but we do need Steam NOW. On the minus side, we won't be able to research medicine as quickly. I'd go for the 900+ gold and 205gpt in a heartbeat if they weren't at war. We should see if we have any coal at all, and if so, how much.

 

[Immortal]

Option 3 is out, I will not accept not recieving the Steam Engine technological advance. Option 1 gives us almost 3 times as much gold as option 2. However while this may work for us, who knows how crippling it will be for greece, Im inclined to go with option 2 despite the loss of more then 2000 gold (option 1). As good as it will be to recieve all that gold, we would recieve it at the cost of a potential ally.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I vote for option 3, as it will allow us to get Steam and Industrialization within 10 turns by way of raising our science rate and getting Medicine.

By claiming Steam power now, we will only be getting a tech that everyone has instead of planning for the acquisition of two techs. Plus we will have Medicine, which we could probably sell to other civs for even more gold.

This is a tough one and I thought for a long time about it, but I would rather have the extra gold and patience. It will be a bigger payoff in the long run.

 

[donsig]

We can currently research medicine in the following # of turns at these research rates:

70%: 15 turns
80%: 13 turns
90%: 12 turns
100%: 11 turns (maybe 10 turns with some temporary scientists Or Newton's U.)

Option 1 would allow us to set the science rate to 70% with a 34gpt surplus or 80% with a 7gpt deficit.

Option 2 would allow us to go to 80% with a 44gpt surplus or 90% with a 2gpt deficit.

Option 3 would allow us to max out the science rate and still have an 81gpt surplus.

This is indeed a key decision. It would be terrific if we could use this deal and Horsa to get us into a tech lead or at least into a position to take one. The best way to get that lead is through ToE. While we are in no position for that now we need some planning if we are to have a chance to build it. Our best bet at ToE may well be to use Horsa for Universal Suffrage if doing so will stop any cascades from US to ToE. We are already pre-building a wonder in Kyoto and that pre-build could one day become ToE.

I'm not sure what our research times for industrialization would be nor do I have any idea how close the Greeks are to finishing US in Thessalonica. We can investigate Thessalonica for 216g which we would have under Option 1. Anyone know how *expensive* industrialization is compared to medicine? Knowing how soon Greece will complete US and how fast we could switch to industrialization would tells us whether we had a shot at rushing US with Horsa. Without this information it is difficult to choose between options 1 and 2.

 

[Chieftess]

We'd have to search through last term's turn chat to see when it begun (if FortyJ reported it).

EDIT: I found it! They started in 1130 AD. It's been 4 turns so far.

Based on the terrain, I estimate somewhere around 16spt (then take some for corruption - 14 or 15 total, it's a "2nd ring" city, but it's also a commercial civ).

Universal Suffrage is 800 shields.

Under Emperor, The AI only has to build 80% of that total IIRC. That's 640 shields.

So far, it has about 56-60 sheilds accumulated, which is about 45-42 by my estimate. (I could be off though)

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Chieftess
We'd have to search through last term's turn chat to see when it begun (if FortyJ reported it).

Are you reffering to the building of Universal Suffrage in Thessalonica? Wouldn't it be better to find the 216g and investigate the city?

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Donovan Zoi
I vote for option 3, as it will allow us to get Steam and Industrialization within 10 turns by way of raising our science rate and getting Medicine.

By claiming Steam power now, we will only be getting a tech that everyone has instead of planning for the acquisition of two techs. Plus we will have Medicine, which we could probably sell to other civs for even more gold.

This is a tough one and I thought for a long time about it, but I would rather have the extra gold and patience. It will be a bigger payoff in the long run.

I think we can be farely certain that we will not be the first to discover medicine, so I don't think this proposition will work.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by donsig


Are you reffering to the building of Universal Suffrage in Thessalonica? Wouldn't it be better to find the 216g and investigate the city?

It's a more direct route, but Domestic would have to authorize it.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

@eyrei, I am sure that once we discover Medicine there wll be someone out there who doesn't have it within 10 turns. And since quite a few civs already have Steam Power, I am guessing that some of them would have Industrialization.

But you know what? Looks like we're getting Steam Power, and I am perfectly fine with that as well. After all, I wouldn't have interrupted your first poll if it didn't have merit.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Chieftess
We'd have to search through last term's turn chat to see when it begun (if FortyJ reported it).

EDIT: I found it! They started in 1130 AD. It's been 4 turns so far.

Based on the terrain, I estimate somewhere around 16spt (then take some for corruption - 14 or 15 total, it's a "2nd ring" city, but it's also a commercial civ).

Universal Suffrage is 800 shields.

Under Emperor, The AI only has to build 80% of that total IIRC. That's 640 shields.

So far, it has about 56-60 sheilds accumulated, which is about 45-42 by my estimate. (I could be off though)

By this estimate they have another 35 or so turns before they complete universal suffrage. If they are building railroads that could cut their build time. Once we get steam power we can see if the Greeks have coal or not (assuming we have coal available and connected). If they don't have coal we should not sell any to them until we get universal suffrage locked up.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

It looks like Option 3 is catching on. Keep in mind that with Option 3:

1. We get approximately 3100 more gold, including 913g upfront.

2. We could then raise the science rate to 100%, allowing us to get Medicine in 10 turns. We could then trade Medicine to acquire Steam Power and Industrialization....maybe more.

3. We would have 10 turns to recruit a better workforce for the task of connecting our country by rail.

What we have to ask ourselves is:

Is 3100g worth a 10-turn delay for Steam Power? Or is getting Steam Power now worth losing 3100?

 

[Chieftess]

Keep in mind also that other nations are building rails, and we must not wait any longer. Our core cities are so far from the frontiers, that it takes several turns to reach their location. (about 3-6 if they're cavalary, 9-18 if they're riflemen).

 

[Eklektikos]

With option 3 we also run the risk of Greece running out of money to pay us our GPT. This tends to lead to sudden unexpected betrayals, since that is the only way to break such a deal. I would rather not risk turning Alex into an enemy, or having Greece overrun by Persian forces because we are taking the money they need to support their own military. Greece are a very useful bulwark against the menace in the South, one that we should not abuse too much at present.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Eklektikos
With option 3 we also run the risk of Greece running out of money to pay us our GPT. This tends to lead to sudden unexpected betrayals, since that is the only way to break such a deal. I would rather not risk turning Alex into an enemy, or having Greece overrun by Persian forces because we are taking the money they need to support their own military. Greece are a very useful bulwark against the menace in the South, one that we should not abuse too much at present.

Very true. I will also point out again, that we should not expect medicine to help us greatly in acquiring other techs. It will be worth almost nothing by the time we can trade it, and we will not be able to use gpt to sweeten the deal.