Information On Our Opponents

[SilentConfusion]

Myst after getting ah/bw/wheel at the earliest. With pre-chopping and anal retentive micro, it's possible to get SH up in 1 turn, minimizing the chance of failure. If someone builds it before we get myst, then so be it. Strategic resources>SH imo. I also strongly endorse the idea of chopping it out in the second city, if forests make it feasible. The 16 is nice in a capital, but awesome in a second (particularly a blocking) city. (wholly map dependent though)

Good points.

 

[damnrunner]

SH would be great for the free monuments - but what happens later in the game when we get Astro? At that point do we lose the "free" monuments, and if so do we also lose the +1 happiness?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

SH would be great for the free monuments - but what happens later in the game when we get Astro? At that point do we lose the "free" monuments, and if so do we also lose the +1 happiness?

The monuments are never "free". Every single one is paid for. Sometimes quite dearly.

At astro, we'd lose the monuments that were in effect due to stonehenge, and we'd lose the . AFAIK we always lose the from monuments at astro, but their culture would remain if we built them in each city.

By astro we'd have maxed out our trades, probably our expansion (or close), and have monarchy and religion, so the issue would be less pressing...but we can always get the CHA back in the modern era :/.

Anyway IMO we should attempt stonehenge, but not to the point of selling our soul in the attempt. Myst after AH/mining/bw and possibly wheel makes sense anyway ---> if we don't build SH, we still need monuments, so it's really an issue of if the wonder is available by then.

 

[Sommerswerd]

We are getting a teensy bit off topic for this thread, so I responded in our turn discussion thread.

Anyway... We need to get our generic greeting letter drafted so that when we meet up with rivals we can make contact right away. We never know when a couple days (or hours) might mean the difference between us making contact first and some other team doing it. Each team might require a different approach in diplo...

CDZ - I don't know much about these guys, but they don't seem to be "keen" on formality. Maybe something a little less formal/ more lighthearted may be the way to go, but I'm interested to hear from others, especially those with more familiarity with these guys.

Mavericks - No idea whatsoever how to deal with these guys. Still a little worried that they may be predisposed towards allying with Sirius, but we will see. What we can tell from the UN forum, is that at least a few of the team have already "crowned" DMOC as their "dictator," so maybe a similar approach as the one we take with Merlot is the best way, but really I'm not sure. We definitely want to make friends with as many teams as possible. Suggestions?

Merlot - Since Indiansmoke will have absolute say over what these guys do, we are really talking to him, so the message should address him directly and acknowledge that he is the sovereign of their country. Maybe even say that we have heard of them or something like that to play to their "royal" egos.

Also, we know that the members of this team enjoy a little roleplaying, because the whole team concept is a sort of exercise in playing the part or royalty/nobility. So maybe our greeting to them should really play up the roleplaying aspect. This will not necessarily placate Indiansmoke, but it may endear us to his subjects. If they all like us, and he is hostile, they may vote him out, so that puts pressure on him to play nice (hopefully).

Quatronia - Provolution enjoys free flowing, free wheeling diplomacy, and considers himself to be a skilled, effective diplomat. Our greeting to Quatronia should cater to this, and maybe contain some IM addresses, both for our Diplomat and alternate contacts for others if the Diplomat is unavailable. Smooth relations with Quatronia will depend on lots of accessibility, availability, and flexibility.

Sirius - In my experience, Lord Parkin does not like to conduct diplo business over IM, he prefers everything to be in Email (PM is OK but not as good) very formal, and full of the "niceties" of organized diplomacy. He prefers that teams have ONE, and ONLY ONE contact person with him, and becomes very put off when he hears from multiple people on the same team.

At the same time, LP wants contact to be often and responses to be swift. He gets very aggitated and hostile with teams that take a long time to make contact or respond to diplomatic messages from him. This will be a virtual deal-breaker for dealing with Sirius... If we expect to make friends with Sirus, we have to be responsive, and we have to have one-unified message/contact person. Anything less will raise LP's ire and seriously damage any hope of befriending Sirius.

We also need to appoint/elect a diplomat at some point, but before we ask for volunteers or hold any sort of election, we should probably discuss duties:
1. what we want our diplomat to do (and not do),
2. have control over (and NOT have control over)

Since we don't have embassy threads yet, this is probably as good a place as any to discuss these two topics. FWIW I think whoever our diplomat is should be the one to put together our embassy threads (but only AFTER they become diplomat, not before).

 

[nabaxo]

I volunteer to to be the envoy to Lord Parkin. I have good contact with him on PMs and IM.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Sirius - In my experience, Lord Parkin does not like to conduct diplo business over IM or PM, he prefers everything to be very formal, and full of the "niceties" of organized diplomacy. He prefers that teams have ONE, and ONLY ONE contact person with him, and becomes very put off when he hears from multiple people on the same team.

At the same time, LP wants contact to be often and responses to be swift. He gets very aggitated and hostile with teams that take a long time to make contact or respond to diplomatic messages from him. This will be a virtual deal-breaker for dealing with Sirius... If we expect to make friends with Sirus, we have to be responsive, and we have to have one-unified message/contact person. Anything less will raise LP's ire and seriously damage any hope of befriending Sirius.

This is what was said in the Sirius UN Thread:

We did do instant messaging a bit in the last game. Generally, I find the way it tends to work best is:

(1) Decide what we want to discuss ahead of time.
(2) Agree not to stray too far from these topics, even if pressed by the other team for information. (It's alarmingly easy to inadvertantly give things away in a chat with an experienced information-grabber, such as oyzar in the last game. )
(3) Get as many people as possible involved in the chat as possible, so as little of the team is left out from the discussion.
(4) Trivial matters (such as temporary Open Borders, temporary resource trades, etc) might be decided while in the chat if there are a few people around.
(5) More serious matters that are brought up (such as long term alliances, major tech trades, etc) will need to be posted in the forum so that all members can see and express their thoughts before anything can be confirmed.

In this way, chats are not so rigid that we have to refuse to discuss anything outside our main objective, and yet not so lucid that major agreements can be made without having input from the people who didn't have the chance to be involved in the chat (perhaps due to a timezone conflict). This avoids making those people who couldn't get to the chat feel left out and powerless.

I can agree to this only if the only people doing the actual negotiations is the ambassador/diplomat. A second chat window should be opened that includes the team only, so that the team can discuss what is taking place in the primary negotiations discussion.

Exactly. By "get as many people as possible involved in the chat", I was simply referring to having a high number of people online and available. Of course we would have a separate window for our private team chat while the chat with the other team went on... otherwise we couldn't discuss anything in private. I thought this was self-evident, but perhaps I should have explained myself better in my earlier post.

In essence: In any MSN chats, we'll definitely have a private window open as well as the diplomacy window.

This at least is the proposed way in which they will handle diplomacy. Doesn't sound like they're averse to IM. Maybe they prefer it in writing, but they seem at least ok with the idea of team IM diplo. This should also be kept in mind when our diplomat is talking to Team Sirius on IM: other members of the team could very well be talking to their diplomat while you are talking to them. We should have an official diplomat person for them to talk to, but we could implement a similar kind of thing if we wanted with team talking to the diplomat in a separate chat.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's hard to picture Snaaty, Obsolete, and babybluepants all taking backseats (among some others), but maybe they just don't want the involvement level DMOC wants. Any of those guys could probably field a competitive team alone, so I don't expect 100% dictatorship. DMOC doesn't seem to carry that ego, so even if he is effectively in control of the team, he will listen to others. I have no idea whether that group would prefer a formal or informal style.

I do think that we should have a thread for each team, and one person in charge of contact with each (possibly with an alternate). This keeps us from tipping our hand by accident or telling others something inconsistent. If one diplomat is too strained, we can select multiple. I think each lead diplomat should be decided via poll and able to name his alternate (ahead of time, while running).

 

[Sommerswerd]

This at least is the proposed way in which they will handle diplomacy. Doesn't sound like they're averse to IM.

Yes you are right that this is what was said in the UN thread, but you have to remember that when this was said, it was in response to an inquiry by donsig about how diplo would be conducted on different teams.

Spoiler :

I'm not ready to make a decision about which team to join. I like some of Provo's ideas and I'm waiting to see what Sommerswerd's team will be like. I do like that you've specified how diplomacy should work on this team and I agree with your approach. I think it's probable that we will have teams that will prefer instant messaging as the primary means of communication between teams. Any idea how you'd like to see your team handle this?

donsig hinted that which team he would join would be influenced by the team's policy on diplo and LP was intelligently trying to draft a response that would be attractive to potential team-joiners, knowing that many players prefer IM communication. LP was savy enough to know that he would alientate potential team-joiners by stating that he was not fond of IM as a medium of diplomacy. The way to guage what will really happen in practice with LP, is to look at what has been said in the past...

Spoiler :

I should point out in advance that email/PM is our preferable medium for team communication. Any chats will be limited because I'll have to talk with my team before committing to anything.

Not sure if you're familiar with these games or not, but it's generally standard practice to ask about things through PM/email before you request them in-game. This even goes for something as trivial as open borders.

Just for future reference, please don't send in-game messages as they're extremely easy to miss or get lost... Please use PM or email in future.

So as you can see, regardless of what LP said in the UN thread, LP is not a fan of IM. If you are not convinced, just read between the lines of what was said in the Sirius UN thread:

Spoiler :

We did do instant messaging a bit in the last game... (It's alarmingly easy to inadvertantly give things away in a chat ... Trivial matters (such as temporary Open Borders, temporary resource trades, etc) might be decided while in the chat

By "get as many people as possible involved in the chat", I was simply referring to having a high number of people online and available. Of course we would have a separate window for our private team chat while the chat with the other team went on... otherwise we couldn't discuss anything in private. I thought this was self-evident... In any MSN chats, we'll definitely have a private window open as well as the diplomacy window

LP says they IMed "a bit"... why not "a lot" or a "ridiculously large amount?" Check out LP's posts planning this game, you probably know by now that he tends a little towards exagerration and hyperbole. So saying "a bit" was not a mistake. It was an ingenious way of saying "a little bit." If he wanted to say "a lot," he would have. You notice he is worried that things will be given away in chat because its "alarmingly easy" to do so. You also notice that he contradicts his policy that "even trivial matters like OB" shouldn't be determined in chat." This also is not a mistake. LP knows what he prefers, but he is trying to appeal to players who prefer IM... Finally, notice how when pressed on the IM issue by Methos, LP backtracks, and says that IM is OK for intra-team chat (ie members of Sirius talking to each other), but not OK for members of Sirius to talk to the other team. I hope it is clear that LP wants one diplomat, one contact person... and he does not like IM. No matter what he says on the UN thread.

 

[remake20]

I will run for diplomat. Don't care which team.

 

[Link]

i would also like to be a diplomat

 

[remake20]

Well I want to be a diplo for our closest friend, if that's possible.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I hope it is clear that LP wants one diplomat, one contact person... and he does not like IM. No matter what he says on the UN thread.

Good job of reading beyond what is said. This is the kind of thing that gives us an advantage. I believe what you say about LP from my interactions with him.




I am not sure whether it is more beneficial to have one head diplomat who handles communications with all teams or multiple diplomats who deal with specific teams. What do others think? Regardless of what we decide, I think I'll run for a diplomat spot.

Our relations with our opponents, both our allies and our "enemies" (although no one should know that we consider them an enemy), will be the difference in winning this game. Our diplomats need to be careful to not give anything away, and careful to listen for information, and careful with words to say only what needs to be said. Eloquence is fine, but above all a diplomat should be careful.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In theory, one guy to be diplomat to all is best, because it's easier to keep stories consistent and not double or under book promises. In practice, this is a lot of effort and might be a bit much on one player. If someone can assure us they can handle all opposing team diplo alone and is eager for it, I say we go with that. However, if nobody wants to do that, we should split it accordingly and keep 1 extra thread with its OP showing current deals with each team and our agreed-upon plans in a concise location all together, so that each diplomat can refer to it and handle the situation more appropriately. If we do go that route, I suggest any diplomats keep that thread open in the browser when communicating with other teams. That is the simplest way to allow multiple people to stay on the same page.

 

[wideyedwanderer]

I agree that one diplomat would be best (assuming they could handle it.) However, it would be more realistic to have a different diplomat for each team. Just saying.

 

[nabaxo]

I volunteer to be that single diplomat if we so decide. I have enough free time to spare.

 

[remake20]

I think we need to have a diplo for each team because then each team will get more attention and increase our ability to trade, ect.

 

[Norton I]

IMO the optimal scenario would be to have a single diplomat who talks to all the other parties. That's the only way to keep full control over the flow of information, and be completely consistent in the way we communicate with different people. I also strongly agree with remakes warning that we should give each team a lot of attention to get the best out of our relationships.

My solution would be to have 1 head diplomat, who communicates with all the teams. In addition, there can be 1 or more diplomatic officers, who can help to write letters, design agreements, etc. In the beginning, these officers do not have direct contact with the other teams. However, the head diplomat can always decide to allow such contact.

Hopefully, with such a system we get the best of both world... in the beginning of the game we have strong and coherent diplomacy, while we still maintain the flexibility to divide the work amongst multiple people later in the game, to make sure the communication will remain intensive.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I suggest that everyone interested in being a diplomat should draft an introductory letter to each rival civ (or at a minimum one introductory letter to one of the Civs) and put all the letters in a "spoiler" so we can all read them. If you are not comfortable with doing this, you will have a great deal of difficulty as diplomat IMO.

A big part of diplo is quickly drafting the official communiques that we send to other teams. In order to be an effective diplomat, you have to be able to write these things quickly, make them effective at getting our point/desires across while still making them sound appealing. Adding some artistic touches like official seals or AMAZON history, or roleplaying language is a good way to do this.

You also have to be able to accept that team mates will critique your hard work, and make changes... and ultimately, we may or may not send the letter... A diplomat has to be able to accept this with no hard feelings .

Lastly, a diplomat should NOT be asking, "Well what do you guys want to say (to CDZ, Sirius, etc)?" Our Diplomat should draft the letter and then say "This is what I suggest we send, do you guys have any changes you want to make or anything different you want to say? A Diplomat is no good to the team if someone else always has to draft the official comuniques, or get the ball rolling with diplo.

If our Diplomat is too timid, or does not have enough time, then our diplo will become chaotic, frustrating, and ineffective. We need a Diplomat who is comfortable taking the initiative in getting our comuniques drafted, sent, and also in checking our team mail for communication initiated by our rivals.

 

[remake20]

I will write a intro letter to merlot.

Team AMAZON would like to say hi to our friends team Merlot. The mighty AMAZON nation has come a long way through struggle and fighting with each other, before founding our nation. Civil war and food fights had plagued our past, but we have resolved these issues and we have settled. We understand your Monarchy and respect it. LONG LIVE THE KING. May he stay alive forever, well maybe . We hope for peace and trading thought history and if there were two teams left, we wish the two of us could be those two. Team AMAZON will here any requests you have and hope we get a lot of them. We are here by your side and we hope to help each other by all means. We have discovered Agriculture and will plant our wheat (through off) in the shape of a crown. We may also make one that says, "LONG LIVE THE KING!" We may be young, but with each others help, we can be unstoppable. WDYT? This may change on how we feel about them. I like a little humor so I added it and I hope you don't mind.

 

[Link]

I will write one to Sirius.
Team Amazon greets the glorious nation of Sirius. We would be proud to count you amongst our friends. We share your love of democracy and our warriors will fight alongside you to the last man. Surely an alliance would help our fledgling empires to grow.