Initiative: Include both Abstain *and* None of the Above

[Chieftess]

I saw that abstain's no longer in polls, but we didn't vote to remove abstain, only to make it not count. So, why not have both options? That way, it'll be more clear.

I'm not expert in legalese, but I'm an advocate of plain, simple English.

"Polls must include an option to disapprove of all other options ("None of the Above"), and an option to merely view the poll results and/or not vote ("Abstain")."

I don't think there's a problem with the wording...

 

[fed1943]

I agree. Abstain do not count (as number) but has meaning: shows lack of
preference or understanding or interest of this asked question, but still
preference,understanding,interest by the connected global questions, the
"community" if you want.
Must be there.

Best regards,

 

[donsig]

Your wording is very good. This is a great example of a proposal for an initiaitive.

That said, I think I'd vote against it but I'm not sure. I'll have to hear what others say about the pros and cons. I'm inclining towards a no vote because I don't see the point in requiring abstain now. The main argument for it seems to be to allow someone who doesn't want to vote to see the poll results. This (so called) benefit is nothing compared to having poll percentages we can look at and accept. Since we already voted to not count abstain, the inclusion of that option messes up the poll percentages making it difficult to know when a real majority has agreed on something. (Majorities still matter to some of us.)

So, anyone know if there's a forum update coming along that will show poll results before we vote in the poll? That would really make abstain obsolete.

 

[dutchfire]

It might just be me, but isn't there a "Show Poll results" button or something like that?

 

[DaveShack]

I do not want to require extraneous poll options.

Especially not requiring both of them in every poll. Take a yes/no poll -- what does "none of the above" mean in a yes/no poll?

 

[ravensfire]

Not needed - this is a solid 'No' vote.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Shattered]

Abstain means that a decision hasn't been reached and they are no longer going to make one. None of the above means that the citizen doesn't like any of the proposed choices, but still makes a choice. Abstain is vestidual.(sp?) I say, either choose none of the above, or don't vote at all if you don't like, or can't make, a decision. I don't think that polls with yes/no questions need a third choice or fourth choice. Like donsig said above, putting these options in the polls will mess up a majority decision, or at least take effort out of someone's day to figure it all out themselves.

 

[donsig]

Take a yes/no poll -- what does "none of the above" mean in a yes/no poll?

Well, here's a NEW thought. Perhaps it means I think your poll is unfair. Perhaps you're trying to railroad something through in a day or so and I'm not sure which way to vote because you're not giving me enough time to figure things out. In the past I would have abstained but that doesn't count for anything anymore, does it? So now I can only run to someone and cry unfair poll, please invalidate it. By including a catch all option (that counts) at least I get to vote against both yes and no if I think the poll is bad (for whatever reason).

 

[Methos]

I agree with Chieftess. I like keeping Abstain in there. Plus, I believe both could still be used in a Yes/No poll. Abstain because you disagree with the poll and None of the Above as you agree with the end solution, but disagree with how they are getting there.

So I'd vote yes on this initiative.

 

[GenMarshall]

We should defenately keep Abstan.

 

[donsig]

We should defenately keep Abstan.

No one is trying to abolish abstain. This discussion is about requiring it. Are you saying abstain should be on every poll or else the poll is invalid and therefore not binding?

 

[Chieftess]

So, anyone know if there's a forum update coming along that will show poll results before we vote in the poll? That would really make abstain obsolete.

There is a "View Results" link, but I know some probably don't click on it...

 

[donsig]

There is a "View Results" link, but I know some probably don't click on it...

Yes, I use that sometimes. Others know about it but don't want to use it every time they want to see poll results. So they want to vote abstain to easily see the results.

 

[fed1943]

Not me. I would abstain in nation,cities names because I do not care about
(in civII and III I gave names like north2,south3, to help localize).
I would abstain in the upload options because I know nothing about.
But I read all posted and respect the interest others feel for the names and
their knowledge about computer things.
Best regards,

 

[donsig]

If you don't care about those thngs then why would you vote or want to see the results?

 

[Methos]

If you don't care about those thngs then why would you vote or want to see the results?

I'd have to agree.

 

[Falcon02]

If you don't care about those thngs then why would you vote or want to see the results?

I can think of one example off the top of my head.

Names. You may not care what other people decide to name a city, feature, or our Nation overall. However you care what the other people come to a decision about so that you can use the correct terminology.

Same thing goes for an Initiative, you may not really have a preferance between options, but you may want to know how things are going and what the result is so that you know if you have to that initiative in the future.



Example, say a person really doesn't care if they have to post an instruction thread 24 hours ahead of time, or if 12 hours ahead of time. But they want to know so that they can plan accordingly for when they do have to post it 24 hours ahead of time, or if they can be more relaxed about it and post it only 12 hours ahead of time.

Note: the above example does NOT reflect my opinion on the matter

 

[Octavian X]

Plain and simple, this is an unneeded initiative. The two options can be vaguely interpreted, which is bad enough as it is. Abstain occupies that area of ambiguous understanding already, and adding a None of the Above simply adds to unnecessary confusion and regulation in our polls forum.

All in all, this and other initiatives which address just single issues in polling are well-intentioned, but ultimately add to the potential for chaos as new citizens attempt to divine what-in-the-world the jumble of polling initiatives mean. We need to drill down to the bigger problem, and create a comprehensive initiative on polling standards and polling validation methods.

 

[ordinaryguy]

Actually, abstain could just be placed in a yes/no poll without much trouble. None of the above could be inserted into a poll with multiple choices. I don't feel that this is a major issue.

There is nothing wrong with adding abstain and none of the above in appropriate polls. If you don't like the options, then don't vote for it. Vote for something else. It's as simple as that.

 

[DaveShack]

There is nothing wrong with voluntarily adding them, just with making them a requirement.