Insane Barbarians
- Thread starter Yakk
- Start date
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Post #16's insane settler is missing the modifications, it appears.
I'll fix it before integrating it into the mod.
Thx alot, i really like this new feature and have it in my MOD thx.
Post #16's insane settler is missing the modifications, it appears.
I'll fix it before integrating it into the mod.
If I messed up with the modifications for Insane Settler, I probabally left out Insane Diety as well; I did those two at the same time
Mod has been updated.
I rolled Blake's Better AI into the mix, simply because I can't justify playing without it. And Blake's Better AI has handicap file changes, to make up for the improved AI, so integrating them takes work.
The animals are not quite the same as the Exotic Animals mod. I had to do extensive rewrites to get it to work in Warlords in any case, so while I was at it I tweaked the animals.
I'm tempted to make Cave Bears and Cave Lions native to the Hill feature. Well, next revision.
Enjoy!
I rolled Blake's Better AI into the mix, simply because I can't justify playing without it. And Blake's Better AI has handicap file changes, to make up for the improved AI, so integrating them takes work.
The animals are not quite the same as the Exotic Animals mod. I had to do extensive rewrites to get it to work in Warlords in any case, so while I was at it I tweaked the animals.
I'm tempted to make Cave Bears and Cave Lions native to the Hill feature. Well, next revision.
Enjoy!
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Oh i forgot to mention that sorry, i only use the HandicapInfo file anyways, LOL, dont want to much else besides that, thx.
It would be correct to have barbarians that are raging beyond control, laying waste to cities and empires. There have been so many cases in history, the prime example of course, being the Roman Empire.
It would be correct to have barbarians upgrading themselves, learning and stealing from the empires nearest to them. Again, Rome is the prime example. Barbarians who are ex-legionaires, who learned from fighting the Romans, using captured Roman weapons.
It would be correct to have barbarian GGs. Genghis Khan has got to be the ultimate GG, at the head of the greatest of the barbarian armies, the Mongols.
Yes, barbarians should attack in waves rather than in small numbers. That's the difference between a barbarian raiding party out for quick booty, a la the Viking raiders, or a full blown barbarian invasion, designed to force a weak empire to its knees or to tribute.
Yes again, empires did use barbarians as "farms", as a means to train up their troops prior to combat against rival powers. Alexander, as one example, was sent to suppress barbarian tribes when he was in his early teens. Considered a safe way to build military experience.
Yes, there were loads of barbarians coming from the sea, remember the Vikings. Even today, in some waters, pirates still operate.
The tricky part is how to represent all this in Civ4 without affecting game balance. Just my two cents worth, guys.
It would be correct to have barbarians upgrading themselves, learning and stealing from the empires nearest to them. Again, Rome is the prime example. Barbarians who are ex-legionaires, who learned from fighting the Romans, using captured Roman weapons.
It would be correct to have barbarian GGs. Genghis Khan has got to be the ultimate GG, at the head of the greatest of the barbarian armies, the Mongols.
Yes, barbarians should attack in waves rather than in small numbers. That's the difference between a barbarian raiding party out for quick booty, a la the Viking raiders, or a full blown barbarian invasion, designed to force a weak empire to its knees or to tribute.
Yes again, empires did use barbarians as "farms", as a means to train up their troops prior to combat against rival powers. Alexander, as one example, was sent to suppress barbarian tribes when he was in his early teens. Considered a safe way to build military experience.
Yes, there were loads of barbarians coming from the sea, remember the Vikings. Even today, in some waters, pirates still operate.
The tricky part is how to represent all this in Civ4 without affecting game balance. Just my two cents worth, guys.
Well, a test of insane barbarians on "contients" "monarch" worked well. With a uniform civilization layout, no civilization was wiped out -- but a few lost cities to the hordes.
One was forced to build up an army to fight the hordes.
I turned on "no city razing". This created a neat problem: you couldn't just go out there and wipe out the barbarian cities. The only way to destroy barbarian civilization was to occupy their cities, which gets expensive on the economy.
The mixture of insane spawn rates and really really tough animals early on is painful. Fog busting techniques just don't work when there are strength 5 animals that get +50% attacking hills wandering the landscape. By the time you can start fog busting, the barbarian cities have already been founded in the wilderness, and they are pumping out units to attack you.
The Great Wall becomes a rather key wonder. I missed getting it by a handful of turns. But being insulated by other civilizations against the barbarian hordes is more important than the great wall.
With no city razing, you lose a whole lot of city placement options -- the barbarians saturate a good chunk of the map with barbarian cities. Conquest of the hordes is usually not an option -- you either defeat them, and integrate them into your empire, or spend a good chunk of your production building almost as big of an army to defend against their regular attacks.
I'd be interested in seeing what happens if I integrate one of those "new civilizations spawn from large barbarian city states" mods.
One was forced to build up an army to fight the hordes.
I turned on "no city razing". This created a neat problem: you couldn't just go out there and wipe out the barbarian cities. The only way to destroy barbarian civilization was to occupy their cities, which gets expensive on the economy.
The mixture of insane spawn rates and really really tough animals early on is painful. Fog busting techniques just don't work when there are strength 5 animals that get +50% attacking hills wandering the landscape. By the time you can start fog busting, the barbarian cities have already been founded in the wilderness, and they are pumping out units to attack you.
The Great Wall becomes a rather key wonder. I missed getting it by a handful of turns. But being insulated by other civilizations against the barbarian hordes is more important than the great wall.
With no city razing, you lose a whole lot of city placement options -- the barbarians saturate a good chunk of the map with barbarian cities. Conquest of the hordes is usually not an option -- you either defeat them, and integrate them into your empire, or spend a good chunk of your production building almost as big of an army to defend against their regular attacks.
I'd be interested in seeing what happens if I integrate one of those "new civilizations spawn from large barbarian city states" mods.
Next version: (a mixture of plans, and what I've got on my laptop right now)
First, 3 versions.
1> Vanilla/Warlords handicap file.
2> Assume BetterAI, just the handicap file.
3> Exotic Animals, BetterAI, Improved Scouts, and Handicap file.
#1 and #2 will just contain bug fixes.
#3 is going to have a few tweaks.
First, I made cave bears/lions native to hills. This reduces the tendency for them to dominate all of the animals.
Second, I gave wolves the ability to run fast through forest, like bengal tigers can currently in jungle.
Third, I made all bears gain the ability to use terrain defensive bonus's. "Don't bother a bear in it's den".
Forth, I fixed some text key bugs, and a bug with dire wolves. I also think I'm going to restrict dire wolves to some kind of terrain...
I wish there where alligator models out there. I could use them in flood planes.
...
I'm sad that I can't get water barbarians to work. I might have to delve into a different mod.
Given that I like using BetterAI, I want to avoid having to poke at the SDK and compile my own DLL.
First, 3 versions.
1> Vanilla/Warlords handicap file.
2> Assume BetterAI, just the handicap file.
3> Exotic Animals, BetterAI, Improved Scouts, and Handicap file.
#1 and #2 will just contain bug fixes.
#3 is going to have a few tweaks.
First, I made cave bears/lions native to hills. This reduces the tendency for them to dominate all of the animals.
Second, I gave wolves the ability to run fast through forest, like bengal tigers can currently in jungle.
Third, I made all bears gain the ability to use terrain defensive bonus's. "Don't bother a bear in it's den".
Forth, I fixed some text key bugs, and a bug with dire wolves. I also think I'm going to restrict dire wolves to some kind of terrain...
I wish there where alligator models out there. I could use them in flood planes.
...
I'm sad that I can't get water barbarians to work. I might have to delve into a different mod.
Given that I like using BetterAI, I want to avoid having to poke at the SDK and compile my own DLL.
So I haven't gotten the 3 next steps done, but I have been testing it.
I think I need to boost the cost of the great wall, or maybe make the AIs like it more. It is, quite simply, far too powerful, especially for a civilization on the edge of the barbarian domains. You can even build "barbarian funnels" to aim at your opponents!
I tried a terra map on monarch, and the barbarians ended up owning the southern archepelego, taking out the northern german empire, causing lots of harm to the carthaginians, and causing lots of pain to the arabs and the zulus.
The game had "no city razing" turned on: this creates an interesting effect. You can only go to war to expand your empire, and sometimes you just leave barbarian cities alone. The barbarians end up holding any and all cities they take from players, resulting in a serious barbarian state.
I'm afraid that the higher difficulty levels might get unplayable -- I suspect that the barbarians might be able to overrun the AI civilizations as well as the player civilizations. On the other hand, the AI does get massive production boosts at those difficulty levels.
Any emperor/diety/immortal level players want to give this a playtest?
I think I need to boost the cost of the great wall, or maybe make the AIs like it more. It is, quite simply, far too powerful, especially for a civilization on the edge of the barbarian domains. You can even build "barbarian funnels" to aim at your opponents!
I tried a terra map on monarch, and the barbarians ended up owning the southern archepelego, taking out the northern german empire, causing lots of harm to the carthaginians, and causing lots of pain to the arabs and the zulus.
The game had "no city razing" turned on: this creates an interesting effect. You can only go to war to expand your empire, and sometimes you just leave barbarian cities alone. The barbarians end up holding any and all cities they take from players, resulting in a serious barbarian state.
I'm afraid that the higher difficulty levels might get unplayable -- I suspect that the barbarians might be able to overrun the AI civilizations as well as the player civilizations. On the other hand, the AI does get massive production boosts at those difficulty levels.
Any emperor/diety/immortal level players want to give this a playtest?
That's the point, though, isn't it? Greater challenges.
By the way, I'll post a version that includes jdog5000's Revolutions mod with better AI, making it possible for civs to split in two and for barbarians to become 'civilized'. I should have it together in a couple of days.
UPDATE: I'm having trouble problems with the merge, so the revolutions mod version may have to wait for a while as I have to work it out.
By the way, I'll post a version that includes jdog5000's Revolutions mod with better AI, making it possible for civs to split in two and for barbarians to become 'civilized'. I should have it together in a couple of days.
UPDATE: I'm having trouble problems with the merge, so the revolutions mod version may have to wait for a while as I have to work it out.
Fierabras
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 1,120
I have been playing around with this mod and I have added a feature. Instead of killing the animals, you beat them in submission and capture them.
Change <Capture>NONE</Capture> to <Capture>UNITCLASS_LION</Capture> for lion in Civ4UnitInfos.xml etc. and start building an army of insane animals!
Change <Capture>NONE</Capture> to <Capture>UNITCLASS_LION</Capture> for lion in Civ4UnitInfos.xml etc. and start building an army of insane animals!
Fierabras
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2006
- Messages
- 1,120
I tried Insane Barbarians 1 with jdog5000's BarbarianCiv, AIAutoPlay and raging barbs option, but without BetterAI (as in Insane Barbarians II) and it worked fine. Nice to see all those civs evolve from barb settlements.
I have done this using Vanilla CIV IV 1.61.
I have done this using Vanilla CIV IV 1.61.
Slaughter
Paladin
I wonder if you mix this mod, the rebelions and all other barb mods around. I can imagine revolutions, barbs becomings civs, super barbs killing civs... Very nice...
I don't like revolutions, because the AI deals extremely poorly with it -- the AI doesn't understand revolutions. Plus: it feels like the civ3 "your city is going to have too many angry citizens next turn, please micromanage at the end of each turn to prevent this"itis.
But yes, I have plans when I next get a free weekend to do some C++ code dredging and build a working BarbarianCiv+BetterAI+InsaneBarbarians (maybe with the insane barbarians option as a checkbox or a scale in the custom game creation).
That'll build a rather nice insane barbarians mod.
Note that just this mod all by itself changes civ4 gameplay: early contact between civilizations on a continent just doesn't happen beyond your neighbours, because the density and toughness of animals in the wilderness. Then the density of barbarians ramps up. You can only really get distant contact via boats or by waiting for civilizatinos to pacify the areas between them. Early fogbusting doesn't work, because the animals tend to slaughter your fogbusters.
After I've got Insane Barbarians fully insanitized, I think I'm gonna toss together an AI-friendly mod: weaken slavery, weaken siege, boost drill/flanking...
But yes, I have plans when I next get a free weekend to do some C++ code dredging and build a working BarbarianCiv+BetterAI+InsaneBarbarians (maybe with the insane barbarians option as a checkbox or a scale in the custom game creation).
That'll build a rather nice insane barbarians mod.
Note that just this mod all by itself changes civ4 gameplay: early contact between civilizations on a continent just doesn't happen beyond your neighbours, because the density and toughness of animals in the wilderness. Then the density of barbarians ramps up. You can only really get distant contact via boats or by waiting for civilizatinos to pacify the areas between them. Early fogbusting doesn't work, because the animals tend to slaughter your fogbusters.
After I've got Insane Barbarians fully insanitized, I think I'm gonna toss together an AI-friendly mod: weaken slavery, weaken siege, boost drill/flanking...
Cincinnatus3
Chieftain
Hey - just got Warlords (I know, I know, I feel like I missed the boat on picking this up so late, but news of another expansion got me to do it) and I downloaded your mod.
Absolutely awesome. I'm having a lot of fun with it. Couple of thoughts here.
I played the Insane Barbs I (without BetterAI - I have an older computer and, while I love the mod, it really slows things down) first, then buckled down and tried Insane Barbs II. It might just be the few games I've played, but it seems that in IB II the AI really isn't defending its cities all that well. Well, take that back . . . some AIs really aren't. This could also be because I'm attacking while their main forces are elsewhere, but its stuck out to me.
The BetterAI in IB II is obvious with wonders dropping a bit more quickly. Also, civs seem to be surviving a bit better. My two forays in IB I saw four
civs eliminated by 500 BC.
Also in IB II, there's a missing textkey for the Forbidden Palace. I didn't think to take down the actual language, but it comes up any time you look at it (or courthouses) in the build screen.
I also love how contact is sporadic. I'm playing a randomized earth where Siberia is absolute barb spawn nightmare. I started near Spain (lucky me, no barbs spawning at my backside) and finally met the civs in the east around 1300 AD. Needless to say, they're not doing so hot. I'm going to try not building the Great Wall to see how the other half lives.
Also - I'm looking forward to the addition of jdogg's Barbciv mod. I played it for vanilla during the testing phase. That addition would make things very interesting
Absolutely awesome. I'm having a lot of fun with it. Couple of thoughts here.
I played the Insane Barbs I (without BetterAI - I have an older computer and, while I love the mod, it really slows things down) first, then buckled down and tried Insane Barbs II. It might just be the few games I've played, but it seems that in IB II the AI really isn't defending its cities all that well. Well, take that back . . . some AIs really aren't. This could also be because I'm attacking while their main forces are elsewhere, but its stuck out to me.
The BetterAI in IB II is obvious with wonders dropping a bit more quickly. Also, civs seem to be surviving a bit better. My two forays in IB I saw four
civs eliminated by 500 BC.Also in IB II, there's a missing textkey for the Forbidden Palace. I didn't think to take down the actual language, but it comes up any time you look at it (or courthouses) in the build screen.
I also love how contact is sporadic. I'm playing a randomized earth where Siberia is absolute barb spawn nightmare. I started near Spain (lucky me, no barbs spawning at my backside) and finally met the civs in the east around 1300 AD. Needless to say, they're not doing so hot. I'm going to try not building the Great Wall to see how the other half lives.
Also - I'm looking forward to the addition of jdogg's Barbciv mod. I played it for vanilla during the testing phase. That addition would make things very interesting
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