Interpol: FARC files real

So you are ok with Chavez funding terrorists like FARC to kill women and children?

Those accusations are false. The files might have been authentic, but they have no proof that Chavez has funded FARC. We don't know what the "300" number refers to, but there's no millions mentioned, and in the last exchange of hostages, FARC gave 300 hostages. Read the links that I gave.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3386
 
Or the problem that you are using TV (modern pop, nonetheless) to base an argument about real life. Here's where I use Britney Spears to prove a point about marriage:

Well, I thought you'd catch the reference since 24 was something of a hit TV show. Not saying that you've missed out on much; my most wasted hours are probably those spent glaring at the TV.

So with a better reference in mind I remove Jack Bauer out of my original quote and go with:

Revised

It's not just waterboarding though. It's also things like grossly oversimplified ticking time bomb scenarios - If some guy buried your daughter in a hole wouldn't you torture him to find out where she was? Sure you would and that means the government should have a strict policy of how often we will torture enemy combatants.

And from that, even more bothersome than the waterboarding itself are the waterboarding cheerleaders who seem to think waterboarding is a great start and perhaps only the beginning to a successful interogation.

And if I smack a prisoner upside the head, is that torture? What if I grab his throat and he thinks for a second that he might die? War criminal?

Well, if you smack someone it's assault. Not assaulting the prisoners is one of the things that eases the publics mind as the government build detainment facilities.

In the case of a smack during an interrogation, at the very least it's coercion which really damages the credibility of any confessions and there are certainly cases where slapping around a detainee would be construed at torture.
 
And from that, even more bothersome than the waterboarding itself are the waterboarding cheerleaders who seem to think waterboarding is a great start and perhaps only the beginning to a successful interogation.

Well, that might be on TV but in real life, the guy the US waterboarded gave information that saved many lives and it was time sensitive information.

And it is only 3. And we might need to do it again. Quit acting like we're removing extremities industrially.
 
Those accusations are false. The files might have been authentic, but they have no proof that Chavez has funded FARC. We don't know what the "300" number refers to, but there's no millions mentioned, and in the last exchange of hostages, FARC gave 300 hostages. Read the links that I gave.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3386

Again, you do realize that Chavez regards FARC as a legitimate military force, not as terrorists....why wouldnt he back them financially?

Bottom line, you have no idea whether those accusations are false or not.

This story from Janes Security News would seem to disagree with you: http://www.janes.com/news/security/jtsm/jtsm080404_1_n.shtml

Of all the information so far declassified, the most revealing is that which gives a glimpse into the FARC's relationships with individuals and government officials outside Colombia, especially in Venezuela.

The FARC's alleged links to the Venezuelan government of President Hugo Chavez have been the subject of intense speculation in recent years.

A number of declassified emails and documents from Reyes' laptop and hard drives seem to confirm that the Chavez government was working to enhance the FARC's political legitimacy and offered it substantial financial support in late 2007 and early 2008.

In an email sent on 22 September 2007 to members of the FARC secretariat, Marulanda cites Chavez's plan to urge other governments to grant the FARC legitimate 'belligerent status' rather than classify them as terrorists - a suggestion that Chavez did not make publicly until three months later.

Numerous allegations have been reported in recent years suggesting Chavez has provided material or financial support to the FARC, although none have been supported by reliable evidence. But several emails sent by Luciano Marin, alias Ivan Marquez, another member of the secretariat, suggest an offer of financial support.

An email sent by Marquez to the secretariat on 23 December 2007 mentions he had a meeting with Ramon Rodriguez Chacin, Chavez's interior minister and his key liaison with the FARC. Marquez said a sum of USD300 million would be given to the FARC by Venezuela, and that these funds are referred to as "the dossier".

The offer appears to be reiterated or adjusted in a further email from Marquez sent on 8 February, this time citing a meeting with Chavez in which he is said to have proposed aiding the FARC by giving them USD250 million either through a black market foreign exchange transaction or by supplying the FARC with fuel it could sell.

The day after, on 9 February, Marquez informed the secretariat that Chavez wanted to thank the FARC for their gift of 100 million pesos when he was imprisoned. This would have been between 1992 and 1994, and at the time worth about USD125,000.

So far, barely a fraction of the files have been declassified, but more will almost certainly be released in the future, providing further insight into the FARC's activities, as well as material for fresh diplomatic tensions with Colombia's neighbours.

You still think the accusations are false? Still?
 
Again, you do realize that Chavez regards FARC as a legitimate military force, not as terrorists....why wouldnt he back them financially?

I think IDF is a legitimate military force, but I also think its a terrorist military. Just because you think the group is legitimate, it doesn't mean that you agree with them. Further, the Venezuelan government had worked to release the hostages that FARC has in the jungles: perhaps they tried to get a leigimate combatant status for FARC in the hopes that it would improve the situation.

Bottom line, you have no idea whether those accusations are false or not.

But we have to documents. The accusations so far made have been proven false from the documents currently available. Like the accusation that Chavez was providing FARC with a "dirty bomb" (an accusation which was discredited by the US), and like the claim that there were photos of Ecuadorian politicians meeting with Farc. And the "300 million" claim. All so far false.

Also, Interpol said that "direct access to the seized computer exhibits by Colombia's first responder anti-terrorist unit in order to view and download their contents did not follow internationally recognized principles in the handling of electronic evidence under ordinary circumstances."

And, "INTERPOL's report also emphasized that the remit of its technical examination was not to evaluate the accuracy or the source of the exhibits’ content." And they've stated that they cannot verify anything linking Chavez to FARC.
 
I think IDF is a legitimate military force, but I also think its a terrorist military. Just because you think the group is legitimate, it doesn't mean that you agree with them.

Terrorism isnt legitimate.

Further, the Venezuelan government had worked to release the hostages that FARC has in the jungles: perhaps they tried to get a leigimate combatant status for FARC in the hopes that it would improve the situation.

Or perhaps not. Perhaps it is trying to get the terrorist label removed so it can fund and arm them with less international hubbub.

But we have to documents. The accusations so far made have been proven false from the documents currently available. Like the accusation that Chavez was providing FARC with a "dirty bomb" (an accusation which was discredited by the US), and like the claim that there were photos of Ecuadorian politicians meeting with Farc. And the "300 million" claim. All so far false.

Not true. Lack of corroborating evidence does not mean that the allegations are not true. It means there needs to be more evidence to confirm what was said in the emails back and forth from Venezuelan gov officials and FARC leaders.

Keep dreaming. Chavez is dirty. The dirt is organizations like FARC. Chavez' own public comments allude to this. I think more information is going to be declassified and more evidence against Chavez forthcoming.
 
No, I dont remember any Reagan presidential order authorizing death squads.

Do you have proof of some?

Reagan Was the Butcher of My People:” Fr. Miguel D’Escoto Speaks From Nicaragua
We go to Managua, Nicaragua to speak with Fr. Miguel D’Escoto, a Catholic priest who was Nicaragua’s Foreign Minister under the Sandinista government in the 1980s. [Includes transcript]

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The 8 years Reagan was in office represented one of the most bloody eras in the history of the Western hemisphere, as Washington funneled money, weapons and other supplies to right wing death squads. And the death toll was staggering–more than 70,000 political killings in El Salvador, more than 100,000 in Guatemala, 30,000 killed in the contra war in Nicaragua. In Washington, the forces carrying out the violence were called “freedom fighters.” This is how Ronald Reagan described the Contras in Nicaragua: “They are our brothers, these freedom fighters and we owe them our help. They are the moral equal of our founding fathers.”

Fr. Miguel D’Escoto, a Catholic priest based in Managua, Nicaragua. He was Nicaragua’s Foreign Minister under the Sandinista government in the 1980s.
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FATHER MIGUEL D’ESCOTO: First of all, let me start out by saying that, of course, Reagan is now dead. And I, for one, would like to say only nice things about him. I’m not insensitive to the feelings of many U.S. people mourning president Reagan, but as I pray that god in his infinite mercy and goodness forgive him for having been the butcher of my people, for having been responsible for the deaths of some 50,000 Nicaraguans, we cannot, we should not ever forget the crimes he committed in the name of what he falsely labeled freedom and democracy.

More perhaps than any other U.S. President, Reagan convinced many around the world that the U.S. is a fraud, a big lie. Not only was it not democratic, but in fact the greatest enemy of the right of self-determination of peoples. Reagan, as you mentioned just a few minutes ago, was known as the great communicator, and I believe that that is true only if one believes that to be a great communicator means to be a good liar. That he was for sure. He could proclaim the biggest lies without even as much as blinking an eyelash. Hearing him talk about how we were supposedly persecuting Jews and burning down non-existent synagogues, I was led to believe really, that Reagan was possessed by demons. Frankly, I do believe Reagan at that time as much as Bush today was indeed possessed by the demons of manifest destiny.

Of course, as I say this, I’m quite aware that to the people of say for example, Project for a New American Century, that is counted as a big plus. Because of Reagan and his spiritual heir George W. Bush, the World today is far less safe and secure as it has ever been. Reagan in fact was an international outlaw. He came to the Presidency of the United States shortly after Samosa, a Dictator that the U.S. has imposed over Nicaragua for practically half a century; had been deposed by Nicaraguan Nationalists under the leadership of the Sandinista Liberation Front. To Reagan Nicaragua had to be re-conquered. He blamed Carter for having lost Nicaragua, as if Nicaragua ever belonged to anyone else other than the Nicaraguan people. That was then the beginning of this war that Reagan invented, and mounted and financed and directed, the Contra War. About which he continually lied to the People. Helping the United States people to be the most ignorant people around the world. I said ignorant, I don’t say not intelligent. But the most ignorant people around the world about what the United States does abroad. People don’t even begin to see—if they did, they would rebel. And so, he lied to the people, as Bush lies to the people today and as they push on, thinking that the United States is above every law, human or divine. And we took the United States, Reagan’s United States, his government to court, the World Court. I was Foreign Minister at that time here in Nicaragua. I was responsible for that. And the United States government received the harshest sentence, the harshest condemnation ever in the history of world justice. In spite of the fact that the United States since the early 1920’s has been proclaiming to the world that one of the proofs of its moral superiority as compared to other countries around the world is the fact that it abides by the international law and was obedient to the world court when the United States was brought to the world court in Nicaragua and received the condemnation that the United States failed to heed the sentence and they till owe Nicaragua by now must be between 20,000 and $30,000 million at the time when we left government that the damages caused by that Reagan war was over $17 billion, and this, according to very moderate estimators of damage, people from the United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America, people from Harvard University and from Oxford and from the University of Paris basically this is the team that was pulled together to estimate the damage. The United States was ordered to pay for the damage. Bush never even wanted to talk to me about it. I said, “Well, let’s have a meeting so that you comply with your sentence of the court.” He said to me in two different letters that there was nothing to talk about.

So, Reagan did damage to Nicaragua beyond the imaginations of the people who are hearing me now. The ripple effects of that; criminal murderous interventions in my country will go on for what, 50 years or more.

yeah, you live in an imaginary world where reagan is a saint and Chavez is pure evil.

Princeps lives in another universe where reagan is satan himself and Chavez a good democrat.

I prefer to live in the real world and I see both are evil in their own ways.
 
yeah, you live in an imaginary world where reagan is a saint and Chavez is pure evil.

Princeps lives in another universe where reagan is satan himself and Chavez a good democrat.

I prefer to live in the real world and I see both are evil in their own ways.

One mans opinion does not fact make.

And once it was discovered that the Contras were comitting human rights violations as opposed to fighting communist backed forces, their military funding was ceased as well. Their funding from the USA only lasted 3 years - from 1982 to 1985.

Also, after several investigations, Reagan was cleared of any involvement or authorization in Iran-contra. It was done without his knowledge or consent.

If Nicaragua hadnt played handsies with Cuba and the Soviets and in turn aided leftist rebels in El Salvador; perhaps the entire situation could have been avoided.

Apparently your world has quite a bit of imagination in it as well. Your claim of "Reagans death squads' is found to be false on its face. They sure as hell weren't Reagans, and they were certainly not directly to be committing terrorism...and once they ignored such, their funding was cut off. The Sandanistas of Nicaragua werent exactly a bunch of angels in their own right.....but of course, thats immaterial to your arguement.
 
One mans opinion does not fact make.

And once it was discovered that the Contras were comitting human rights violations as opposed to fighting communist backed forces, their military funding was ceased as well. Their funding from the USA only lasted 3 years - from 1982 to 1985.

Also, after several investigations, Reagan was cleared of any involvement or authorization in Iran-contra. It was done without his knowledge or consent.

If Nicaragua hadnt played handsies with Cuba and the Soviets and in turn aided leftist rebels in El Salvador; perhaps the entire situation could have been avoided.

Apparently your world has quite a bit of imagination in it as well.

you are just an apologist. Can't you see that both sides commit atrocities?

Aren't you enough of a man to accept it?
 
you are just an apologist. Can't you see that both sides commit atrocities?

Aren't you enough of a man to accept it?

Rofl. Didnt I just say that the contras did commit atrocities and in turn their funding was removed?

Or didnt you notice?

But to allude that such 'atrocities' were (a) directed by Reagan or (b) considered as acceptable by the USA is just ridiculous. To wit, to make the comment "Reagans deaths squads" is just so factually incorrect as to be utterly stupid.

Are you man enough to accept that?
 
Rofl. Didnt I just say that the contras did commit atrocities and in turn their funding was removed?

Or didnt you notice?

But to allude that such 'atrocities' were (a) directed by Reagan or (b) considered as acceptable by the USA is just ridiculous. To wit, to make the comment "Reagans deaths squads" is just so factually incorrect as to be utterly stupid.

Are you man enough to accept that?

It took 3 years to notice something was wrong?

Fetch me another apologist lie.

and yes, I accept, you think it's all stupid, but then again, how often do we see that from you? :p

If you continue like that, you would even say the muhjadeen were all brave angels in their war vs the SU. :lol:


Oh and, I love this roleplaying, one day I'm a civil guy, the other day I imitate a poster like Scad or mobby.
 
It took 3 years to notice something was wrong?

Fetch me another apologist lie.

How long did it take the Sandanistas to stop funding the leftist rebels in EL Salvador?

Oh wait....

If you continue like that, you would even say the muhjadeen were all brave angels in their war vs the SU. :lol:

Not at all, but you cant kill a whole village with a stinger missile. You can however, shoot a helicopter down with one. Savvy?
 
How long did it take the Sandanistas to stop funding the leftist rebels in EL Salvador?

Oh wait....

now, be a good boy and show me where i support them.

Not at all, but you cant kill a whole village with a stinger missile. You can however, shoot a helicopter down with one. Savvy?

I just find it appalling you close your eyes on your own side if they commit crimes and attack the other.

One should see both sides are constantly in the wrong.

but it takes a bit to of a reasonable stance for you to accept without losing your unwavering support for some persons.


What Would Downtown Do?

;)
 
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