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Invisible Units (Rogues etc.) Answers Thread

Discussion in 'Strategy and tips' started by Yudishtira, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Yes, I object; they still should be able to enter foreign cities - but not if dogs or "can-see-hidden-units"-units are present.
    If dogs etc are on same tile like them - perhaps because they move into a city an enemy already is in or because they are produced in a city with a "visitor" the next turn the rogue/assasin etc should be pushed (teleported) out and not be enter again until the dog etc is dead or gone.
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I thought the whole point of these units is to station them in another nation's city to spread crime. Personally I think they should have some crime related missions added to them. Something that uses the unit up like building a special crime building that can only be removed using one of your rogues for example. This could be countered by requiring that a certain level of crime fighting building not be in the city. Instead of having a unit remove the rouge built unit the anti-crime building could.
     
  3. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    The point is to station them near enemy cities. You have to be able to do something about them, and you can't do that when they are in your cities. In your territory you can deal with them (death by dogs and cavalry is my preferred method).
     
  4. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    While I have plans for an infiltration method to control this feature (invis units being able to enter cities and be ejected if caught) for now, I'm quite happy to let them enter cities. If you haven't kept a watchful eye with dogs on the city perimeter and have thus allowed a rogue to enter the city, that's kinda then a problem you've gotta deal with, a degree of added local crime to overcome. I'm not seeing this as any kind of game breaking or even ultra challenging feature to allow it to remain as is for now.

    That said, until I can get the time to deepen the system I don't really care what we do with it in the interim.
     
  5. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    This is what I was saying, and what I would prefer. I don't think I'd miss it if they couldn't enter a city at all, but I tend towards the opinion that they should have the option when the city can't see them.

    Nor do I think they should be ejected when spotted, although I suppose when you know they're there you must have a way of attacking them.

    If two civs at war have open borders with a third civ, can they not fight each other's units in the third-party city? I have certainly lost air units that way in BtS. Once you spot a rogue, he needn't be expelled, but your units entering the city (not necessarily those there already) will (or may) attack him.

    Like when an invisible is stacked with enemy units. I've always assumed he has to move out and back to attack them, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Either way, it would be great if invisibles discovered in cities could be treated the same as that (ie. units entering the tile can - or perhaps must - attack him, but no conflict is automatically triggered with units already in the tile).

    I see your point. Units that have the crime-spreading ability obviously want to do it in other people's territory, and if they are invisible, why not in cities, which seems to be by some margin the most effective place to spread crime. However, it is by no means their only purpose. They are great at killing scouts, workers, missionaries etc. They're also great at pillaging. (They can also be good at killing rogues I believe...)

    Presumably other units with crime promotions, can benefit from them without holing up in an enemy city. As I said above, I'm not against rogues being able to enter a city, just to remain undisturbed once discovered, and especially to come and go as they please despite being visible.

    If you did especially want them to be able to remain once they are there, could you make them invisible to all units - like spies - once they are in a (non-friendly) city? Or even, any city?
     
  6. stp52x

    stp52x Chieftain

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    These rogues are tremendously aggravating!

    I'm not even 10% into the game and I've lost well over 20 workers to Chavez's rogues! I'm trying to patrol my borders with spies but I'm not seeing them! There should be some option in the Bug to disable them.
     
  7. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    The answer is dog units. They come earlier than spies.
     
  8. 0100010

    0100010 Prince

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    Don't spies have an assassinate and/or bribe unit mission? Can this be used against an enemy criminal unit inside a one of your cities? (if not, then it should)
     
  9. Faustmouse

    Faustmouse Deity

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    Just add an Axeman or something to every Working unit.

    Later in the game I usually place strong defending units (like Machine Guns) on EVERY Boarder TIle so that no enemy Criminal unit can enter my territory. You need dogs for that of course.
     
  10. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    So, there is no way to expel an enemy rogue inside my city?
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    No there isn't. Discussion started on it but no decision was made.
     
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Just be vigilant, they will move out on their own, then pounce on them.

    JosEPh
     
  13. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Except the ones I put in other nations cities. They don't move until after I conquer that city. :D
     
  14. Rodnok

    Rodnok Prince

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    I thought so, but I wanted to know for sure. In my current game I didnt bother with rogues and dogs for some time, then I built the first dog (and asked here) - and the enemy rogue got nervous and moved out to be killed quickly :).

    By the way, dont you think that rogues are too strong? Before the recent changes to income (which made the income too easy) I often built them just to hunt enemy scouts and hunters, getting 20 gold from each battle. They are fast, get promotions quickly and are nearly invincible. Now I avoid bandit hideout just for that reason...
     
  15. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  16. gudal

    gudal Chieftain

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    Hi, great mod, apart from that as soon as rogues are in the city, they remain. It's what made me go from "wow, this is awesome" to "meh, I really don't want to play it anymore", and I think that's a pity, for the rest of it is very good.

    No replies here for a while I see, so sorry about the necro. But this appears not to be fixed yeet.

    Tried with dogs (after the fact), which did not help.

    Before I continue, I want to say that I take it for granted people think that being able to deal with foreign rogues in you city in SOME way is must. I have a few solutions.

    To make it more interesting than just have a dog and its not getting in, I propose, and I do not know how difficult this is to make, so forgive me if it's hard, that to enter a city a rogue must infiltrate it successfully. This should be a percentage possibility based on the skill of the rogue, either through a line of feats, err I mean promotions (this mod reminds me so much of D&D) or just his overall level, against the level of any anti-spy units/builds/civics such as dogs and watchtowers.

    Infiltrating should not be so hard that you don't make it if the enemy just has one dog there, unless your rogue is a newb and the dog is a vet. It is more interesting if infiltration mostly works, unless the enemy is really prepared and has stacked many dogs there. This number should be so high that it is not economically to do so in every city. In that way, you are instead encouraged to have an antispy task force, or an FBI/CIA if you will, travelling around the nation looking for spies (ok don't take that too literally, but you get my drift).

    When it comes to detecting rogues already in the city, it should use the same formula as during infiltration. Each unit/building/civic option should contribute somewhat, say, each unit has several anti rogue promotions so that they each have a 10 % chance to find and ??? him every turn. Then you would need either many of them or more turns, yet one unit could get lucky and find him. This, in my opinion would in a better way simulate reality, AND make it more enjoyable.

    Now what to do with the rogues once detected, I'm not sure what's best. But a few solutions are.

    1) Have them evicted at the end of the owner's turn / the beginning of the owner of the infiltrated city's turn, so that he/she has a chance to react to the rogue(attack him)

    2) if found you're caught, with possible escape back to capital. Makes it more terrifying to leave a well promoted rogue in a city for too long, but still it makes them a little too much like the spies.

    3) a variation of 2), if you're found you may try to escape before you're caught. Well same as 2) really, only worded a bit differently.

    4) Allow certain units to attack them in cities, as is discussed above. Other infiltration-type units might have to be a must, such as dogs or other rogues (its easier to hide from an army than from one good spy).

    The total war series has similar mechanics to what I propose, btw.
     
  17. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Are you using the v36 standard version, or the "current" SVN version?
     
  18. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    @gudal,
    See post 2 above yours from Rodnok, the 1st paragraph. The rest is just player preference much like what most of your post is.

    JosEPh :)
     
  19. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    As SO insinuated, we're a step ahead of you here. The need was recognized and has been responded to already. Take a look at the Arrest Feature thread.
     
  20. gudal

    gudal Chieftain

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    That is wonderful. Ahh. I'm going to look at that. Very good. Then it's back to playing I assume.

    Not using latest SVN though. I always considered SVN way above me in terms of skill (I know, that's saying something).
     

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