Ironclad Needs Work

I'm not in agreement with the general opinion which I read as basically to buff the ironclad into a deep-water super-frigate. That would just make the battleship even more useless.

An alternative (which I thought the OP hinted at) would be to make it a specialized unit like the armored barges the OP referred to. Keep the current stats, give it +100% against cities and change the name.

You still probably wouldn't often build it, but it would be useful situationally. Unlike to current unit, which is basically useless.
 
They should have way more defensive strength at least. Abstractions aside, how is iron only 1/6 stronger than wood?!

Not sure. Metallurgy in the 1800's still had a long way to go. On the on the hand, the U.S.S. Constitution earned its nickname Old Ironsides from the fact that British cannon balls would bounce off of its seasoned oak timbers.
 
not to be "that guy" but if I'm sitting on surplus coal, I actually DO build ironclads as they give me ready-to-upgrade battleships once I hit telegraph (assuming I have the oil)

Well, I think that's kinda the point of the thread. So far, you are the only person claiming to regularly build ironclads - and even you only build them to upgrade to battleships.

I'd rather not have a unit that is simply a 'placeholder' - giving the ironclad a use of its own would be far preferable.

I like the city bombardment idea - so far in this game I have found ship's city bombardment to be rather lackluster.
 
Some Ironclads could achieve over 16 knots at full power, which was faster than sail-powered frigates or ships-of-the-line, which could only achieve 13-14 knots at full sail with the wind. Considering that an Ironclad could be propelled faster regardless of the wind's direction, it's perfectly justified that it should have more Movement points than a Frigate or Ship of the Line.

Some Ironclads were designed to be cruisers -- primarily those belonging to the British. The British Empire was able to support a fleet of Ironclad cruisers because they had colonies and ports everywhere, where their coal-powered ships could resupply.

The problem is that when most people think of Ironclads, they always think of the Monitor and the Merrimack, the first two ironclads to do battle. And because those two American ironclads weren't designed for ocean travel, everyone assumes that all ironclads were incapable of crossing the ocean. But that's a fallacy. The British and most other naval powers began building ocean-going ironclad warships after the Battle of Hampton Roads in 1961.

Firaxis needs to do their homework and modify the Ironclad in Civ5 so that it's actually useful and isn't limited to only shallow water, then maybe players will actually build them.

But "ironclad" covers a wide variety of ship types - from the early stuff like the French coastal batteries, La Gloire/Warrior, and Monitor and Merrimack/Virginia - through all sorts of strange intermediate designs while people were still figuring out how to use the new technology - and then up to the pre-Dreadnoughts that were almost battleships.

I have to disagree on the demarcation of coastal vs offshore here - coastal tiles are still open water, and really the ocean tiles and their restriction is more an abstraction representing inability to make ocean crossings between continents.
I think there's two aspects to this - the first being the appropriate seaworthiness to be able to handle the worst of what the ocean has to offer without the ability to shelter in port or undergo proper repairs. A lot of the ironclad type ships sacrificed seaworthiness/reliability in exchange for combat ability - many coastal ironclads had ridiculously low freeboard or were ridiculously topheavy.
The second aspect is the inefficiency of the coal-powered engines, which puts a serious limitation on the operational range of some of these ships.
So while yes, there were plenty of ironclad ships capable of making ocean crossings, many of those were specifically designed around that ability - whereas given that most fleets were designed around fighting nearby European rivals, such an ability was not essential and dispensed with on many ships.

I'm not arguing that ocean-going ironclads didn't exist or even that they weren't common, but rather that there's sufficient historical justification for a rule that I think makes naval combat more interesting. But yes, they're way too weak to make up for it. I'd go for more combat strength to represent their toughness, and I'd also go with range 3 - which would let them play a more effective role as a coastal artillery battery, as well as slightly mitigating the coastal-only penalty by letting them hit more slightly-offshore ships.
 
But "ironclad" covers a wide variety of ship types - from the early stuff like the French coastal batteries, La Gloire/Warrior, and Monitor and Merrimack/Virginia - through all sorts of strange intermediate designs while people were still figuring out how to use the new technology - and then up to the pre-Dreadnoughts that were almost battleships.

That's true. But there were countless different types, classes, and rates of Age of Sail warships, but Civ5 only has 3: the Caravel, Frigate, and Ship of the Line. The Ironclad represents all of the ironclad warships of the mid-to-late 19th century, which preceeded the all big gun Dreadnought battleships.

Just because the most famous Ironclads weren't designed for ocean travel doesn't mean that the Ironclad unit in Civ5 should have the same limitation. There were plenty of Ironclads that were ocean-going cruisers and battleships.

And here's the trump card that should end this debate: the Civ5 Ironclad's unit picture.

180px-200px-211_Ironclad.png


That picture is not of a Monitor or Merrimack-style early Ironclad with a low freeboard. That's definitely an ocean-going ironclad -- it even has masts for SAILS!

Case closed.

I have to disagree on the demarcation of coastal vs offshore here - coastal tiles are still open water, and really the ocean tiles and their restriction is more an abstraction representing inability to make ocean crossings between continents.

I think there's two aspects to this - the first being the appropriate seaworthiness to be able to handle the worst of what the ocean has to offer without the ability to shelter in port or undergo proper repairs. A lot of the ironclad type ships sacrificed seaworthiness/reliability in exchange for combat ability - many coastal ironclads had ridiculously low freeboard or were ridiculously topheavy.
The second aspect is the inefficiency of the coal-powered engines, which puts a serious limitation on the operational range of some of these ships.
So while yes, there were plenty of ironclad ships capable of making ocean crossings, many of those were specifically designed around that ability - whereas given that most fleets were designed around fighting nearby European rivals, such an ability was not essential and dispensed with on many ships.

Again, you're focusing too much on the earliest and most famous Ironclads, and not the diverse assortment of ironclad warships of that era.

The fact is that the Ironclad's inability to enter ocean tiles is the primary reason why so few players build them. What is the point in building such an expensive warship if it's only capable of defending your coasts, and not bringing the fight to your enemies' shores.

The Ironclad needs to be modified to make it actually useful. If not, it should be removed from the game.

I'm not arguing that ocean-going ironclads didn't exist or even that they weren't common, but rather that there's sufficient historical justification for a rule that I think makes naval combat more interesting. But yes, they're way too weak to make up for it. I'd go for more combat strength to represent their toughness, and I'd also go with range 3 - which would let them play a more effective role as a coastal artillery battery, as well as slightly mitigating the coastal-only penalty by letting them hit more slightly-offshore ships.

The Ironclad's Combat Strength can't be increased because it's 35, which is the same as a Destroyer. Instead, Ironclads and all Industrial and later era Naval units should be given a special promotion that gives them +50-100% damage resistance to ranged attacks from pre-Industrial era Naval units. Ironclads also should have higher Ranged Strength, because most were armed with large calibre rifled naval guns that fired explosive shells, whereas sail-powered Frigates and Ships of the Line usually only had smoothbore solid-shot cannons. The Ironclad's Range Strength should be increased to 20. The Ironclad's range should remain 2, because 3 is too far.

IMO the ranges of all pre-Industrial era Naval units she be reduced to 1, because even though they had ranged weapons, they weren't long range. I understand why Ranged land units have a minimum of 2 Range because they're so vulnerable to melee attacks. But unlike land units, Naval units can't be melee attacked, so reducing their range to only 1 should be fine.
 
Thal fixed all this in the vanilla enhancement mod. It actually stuns me that people actually play CiV with out it.
Everytime I see one of these threads that go 'when are they gunna fix...", "this would make more sense if..." I assure you Thal probably fixed it already in VEM.

Why wait for Firaxis when we have Thal? :D
 
Steam engines evolved overtime so coal fired ships could travel farther. The other thing was the buildup of coaling stations along trade routes, which allowed ships to replenish their coal bunkers for the next leg of their journey.
 
That's true. But there were countless different types, classes, and rates of Age of Sail warships, but Civ5 only has 3: the Caravel, Frigate, and Ship of the Line. The Ironclad represents all of the ironclad warships of the mid-to-late 19th century, which preceeded the all big gun Dreadnought battleships.

Just because the most famous Ironclads weren't designed for ocean travel doesn't mean that the Ironclad unit in Civ5 should have the same limitation. There were plenty of Ironclads that were ocean-going cruisers and battleships.

And here's the trump card that should end this debate: the Civ5 Ironclad's unit picture.

180px-200px-211_Ironclad.png


That picture is not of a Monitor or Merrimack-style early Ironclad with a low freeboard. That's definitely an ocean-going ironclad -- it even has masts for SAILS!

Case closed.

Indeed, The unit picture looks strikingly like the French Central battery ship Dévastation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_battleship_Dévastation_(1879)

Although in game the ironclad fires its guns from the fore and aft so meh!
 
Indeed, The unit picture looks strikingly like the French Central battery ship Dévastation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_battleship_Dévastation_(1879)

Although in game the ironclad fires its guns from the fore and aft so meh!

Dévastation: Ironclads were designed for several roles, including high seas BBs, Coastal BBs, and long range cruisers. BB is naval designation for battleship. This French model from what I read is a coastal design used for teaching naval maneuvers to French crews. However, the French Navy's La Gloire ("Glory") was the first ocean-going ironclad battleship in history. The ship was launched 24 November 1859, before the American Civil War, and could attain 13 knots. This is the main reason why ironclads need to be upgunned. Thats why mine are.


http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Ironclad_warship

I am going to read the Stars and Stripes trilogy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars_and_Stripes_trilogy I got all three books for 27 cents. Not bad!

Speed: 15 kn (28 km/h) at full load (steam)

Range: 3,100 nmi (5,700 km) at 10 kn (19 km/h) (steam) :)

Ok, we have had quite a debate about how ironclads should be portrayed in CiV. Imagine if the Gloire or HMS Warrior faced the Virginia or Monitor, who do you think would win???
 
Dévastation: Ironclads were designed for several roles, including high seas BBs, Coastal BBs, and long range cruisers. BB is naval designation for battleship. This French model from what I read is a coastal design used for teaching naval maneuvers to French crews.

I read up on the Dévastation. Considering that it had a range of 5,700 km and a relatively high freeboard, it was obviously capable of ocean travel. Just because the French primarily used it as a coastal battery ship, and to train officers and crewmen in ship maneuvers, doesn't mean it can be relegated to a coast defence ship. It was a capable high seas battleship.

That's how the Civ5 Ironclad should be portrayed -- the dev should remove the restriction that prevents it from entering ocean tiles.
 
I read up on the Dévastation. Considering that it had a range of 5,700 km and a relatively high freeboard, it was obviously capable of ocean travel. Just because the French primarily used it as a coastal battery ship, and to train officers and crewmen in ship maneuvers, doesn't mean it can be relegated to a coast defence ship. It was a capable high seas battleship.

That's how the Civ5 Ironclad should be portrayed -- the dev should remove the restriction that prevents it from entering ocean tiles.

Soryn Arkayn I completely agree with you. Your right about Dévastation, it certainly could have been used on the high seas. :)
 
Something needs to be done to make Ironclads actually useful.
I like the idea of giving the unit a bonus vs earlier naval units
and giving it the ability to cross oceans.
 
I'd rather have 3 range for ironclads, as polycrates said. To me, it is the most elegant fix for them (aside from the upgrade to batleships, which has already been implemented). Sure, it's not great for realism purposes, but there's a lot of realism problems already because of ranged units (longbowmen have 3 range, for God's sake), so who cares...
 
The Ironclad is agreeably in need of improvement, and I think naval warfare as a whole can be much more interesting. The approach I took in vanilla enhanced is two categories of naval vessels: light ships and capital ships. This categorization makes it easy for ships of an equal era to each have value for different purposes.

_______ Ancient__Medieval _Renaissance __Industrial ________Modern
Light: __Trireme → Caravel →_ Frigate___→ Destroyer
Capital: ______________ Ship of the Line →_Ironclad → Battleship → Missile Cruiser

  • Light ships are fast, lightly armored, inexpensive, see far, and use no strategic resources. Light ships act as a screen against opposing light ships, which capital ships are too slow to chase down.
  • Capital ships have a siege bonus vs cities, are slower, slightly stronger, more expensive, and require strategic resources. Capital ships do the heavy lifting of shore bombardment against units and cities.
For the Ironclad in particular, I changed the resource requirement from Coal to Iron, removed the ocean penalty, and changed the stats to 40:c5strength:/30:c5rangedstrength:/5:c5moves:. This combines with other changes to ships and their promotions to create more exciting naval warfare. :)
 
The Ironclad is agreeably in need of improvement, and I think naval warfare as a whole can be much more interesting. The approach I took in vanilla enhanced is two categories of naval vessels: light ships and capital ships. This categorization makes it easy for ships of an equal era to each have value for different purposes.

_______ Ancient__Medieval _Renaissance __Industrial ________Modern
Light: __Trireme → Caravel →_ Frigate___→ Destroyer
Capital: ______________ Ship of the Line →_Ironclad → Battleship → Missile Cruiser

  • Light ships are fast, lightly armored, inexpensive, see far, and use no strategic resources. Light ships act as a screen against opposing light ships, which capital ships are too slow to chase down.
  • Capital ships have a siege bonus vs cities, are slower, slightly stronger, more expensive, and require strategic resources. Capital ships do the heavy lifting of shore bombardment against units and cities.
For the Ironclad in particular, I changed the resource requirement from Coal to Iron, removed the ocean penalty, and changed the stats to 40:c5strength:/30:c5rangedstrength:/5:c5moves:. This combines with other changes to ships and their promotions to create more exciting naval warfare. :)

The games designers lack of rudimentary knowledge of history is apparent here. All major nations had the ability to build a ship of the line, not just the British. A frigate is a scout for the fleet. SOTLs are used in line of battle, not frigates. A ship had to have at least 64 guns, at least to fight in line. Frigates fall far short of this averaging 28-44 guns. In this game, France for instance, has no CAPITAL ships, because they cannot build a SOTL, neither can Spain, it is absolutely horrendous, and utterly stupid. Trafalgar right out the window. Of course Lord Nelson would smile. I was hoping an expansion pack would resolve this idiotic issue. But with progressive steam in the way, this seems highly unlikely. It will be up to the modders when the DLL comes out, if not before. How can you have just one nation with a SOTL? It is mind boggling. :crazyeye: The point is both types of ships should be present. They both had very different functions.

BTW do you not consider the aircraft carrier as a capital ship, and where is its escort the cuiser?? The cruiser should be added as well. It should be destroyer, cruiser, battleship, aircraft carrier. Thats just the basic scheme of naval hierarchy of course the sub is important too. The games designers should have played the Miltion Bradley game BATTLESHIP!!!

Ironclads should require coal! Obviously iron too. (this I have left at just coal for now). However, just iron does sound better for naval warfare more civs could build them. I am going to test this with coal first, just to see for myself. Moves at 4 should be about right. 30 range combat seems a bit high. IMO. But whatever works for you. My adjustments, well the ones I am testing are shown earlier in the thread. Here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10985366&postcount=13
 
@nokmirt
I agree completely about the Ship of the Line. That's why I made it a capital ship available to all civilizations. For England I replaced it with a Steam Mill to represent Britain's head start on the Industrial Revolution (also improves England for non-archipelago maps).

The Aircraft Carrier is a capital ship but separate from the main upgrade path. Submarines are light ships with a bonus against capital ships. The roles of WW2-era cruisers would probably overlap too much with destroyers/battleships to give cruisers a distinct enough role. The 30 range strength is part of other changes to ships in general, such as a 100% naval defense modifier (up from vanilla's 40%).
 
@nokmirt
I agree completely about the Ship of the Line. That's why I made it a capital ship available to all civilizations. For England I replaced it with a Steam Mill to represent Britain's head start on the Industrial Revolution (also improves England for non-archipelago maps).

The Aircraft Carrier is a capital ship but separate from the main upgrade path. Submarines are light ships with a bonus against capital ships. The roles of WW2-era cruisers would probably overlap too much with destroyers/battleships to give cruisers a distinct enough role. The 30 range strength is part of other changes to ships in general, such as a 100% naval defense modifier (up from vanilla's 40%).

I see, I am starting to like your mod. Does it play well with the YAHEM Giant Earth TSL map? Thats what I play my games on.

BTW Thalassicus, that is an interesting name, of or like the sea. I like it! :)

One question more what are the differences in ratings between your frigate and ship of the line? Just curious.

My current game is going really good, but my next game I will try out your mod. As long as it will play on GEM.
 
It should work okay on real-earth maps. The only downside of such a map is it gives us an advantage, since we know the layout of the terrain while the AI does not. Some maps I'd recommend trying are the PerfectWorld script included in the package, or continents-plus / pangaea-plus from the Explorers DLC.

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