Is anyone else appalled by the Eurocentrism in Civ?

[CHEESE!]

Greece out? GREECE? The land of Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Pericles, Leonidas- great people from every walk of life? The core of the greatest empire in the world at the time? The foundation of Roman culture, and thus the foundation of Western culture? THAT GREECE?

Seriously, please suggest a non-Euro civilization (not in game) that could POSSIBLY stand up to Greece for inclusion?

 

[johny smith]

Greece out? GREECE? The land of Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Pericles, Leonidas- great people from every walk of life? The core of the greatest empire in the world at the time? The foundation of Roman culture, and thus the foundation of Western culture? THAT GREECE?

Seriously, please suggest a non-Euro civilization (not in game) that could POSSIBLY stand up to Greece for inclusion?

Klingons.

Whatever it is not like it will have anything tied to the civilization to really represent the culture. A building and unit so you can pretend to be in the 300 movie. I mean you will probably just get another silly Alexander in charge. How about just include the Macedonians or Spartans instead? They will be selling the DLC for Greece not to long after release. Probably Greece and every European civ from the past games except the Holy Roman Empire will be a DLC.

 

[Dragonflow]

Good god, why does everybody hate the HRE? I always thought they had a pretty good combination of Leader, UU and UB. Yet the naming was pretty lame, they should have named them Austria and picked another leader.

 

[Dachs]

Austria should be subsumed into "Germany" and somebody like Hungary should've gotten a slot.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

Not so much appalled. I'd say more satisfied with what I've seen so far. Although Siam over Spain?!! Perhaps they could have cut Irouque for the Vikings too

 

[civ_king]

Also, there's the fact that, all you people opposing the 'Eurocentrism' are constantly quoting China and Arabia. Those two Civilizations are already in Civ.
My point being that, while China and the Arabs may have had a great effect, those are just two Civs, two Civs already in the game. Whereas Europe has many more countries in it, and thus more Civilizations. France, Germany and England combined may ahve had less effect than China on history, but there's three of them, and not one.
Name one non-European Civilization that had an effect on History that isn't ALREADY IN THE GAME.

Except the Mongols, but I also want them in.

Caliphate of Córdoba and Mughal Empire.

in terms of physical size the countries can't compare. But it's silly to think Europe had no impact.

If anything the game isn't europe centric enough.

And yes we know other civilizations did a "couple" great things. The middle east was fairly advanced during certain ages. But let's face it. Europe pushed the world into the industrial and modern ages. I doubt China would have done much technologically without European contact. They were too isolated. They never even developed an alphabet .

Someone mentioned the Anasazi. Please. Population alone doesn't constitute a civilization. There are too many minor native american tribes in the civ4 and civ5 as it is. I'm okay with the Mayan and Aztecs, maybe even the Incas. But no more are needed.

Brilliant

Where "during certain ages" means "for most of human history." Until a few hundred years ago, Europe was a useless backwater compared to Asia and the Middle East. If anything, they helped nudge Europe forward more than the other way around.

China wasn't as much isolated as much as it was "unified" so to speak, so it would be harder to find as many different civs like you can with Europe. Though you could find some if you tried, I suppose. A Tibetan Empire civ could be pretty unique and interesting.

Tibetan Empire? it has spent it's history as either a backwards totalitarian theocracy or a province of China

You can't really cope with pace of this forums. If Astronomy isn't good example for what I was saying why not try it with say, republic system. Athens were republic in ancient world before they discovered anything like feudalism or paper. Yet in game we are forced to allways follow path of slavery -> feudalism -> than constitution and republic. Unless you build pyramids (what that has to do with anything?). I would love game where you can start with democracy early just because your people adopted such social policies or ideas.

Another thing that always annoyed me was politheism -> monotheism switch. Just because it happened in Europe doesn't mean monotheism is some higher and more advanced form of religion. In fact I have to agree that civ4 is better in providing alternative tech paths to previous games but still nowhere level that would make me happy.

About 1421, I guess my layman world has been overwhelmed by amount of evidence provided by Menzies. I will have to do some more research and think about it. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

I agree

yeah I was thinking when writing that I should look them up in Wiki. I had no idea their brains were so large. I'm still reading the rest of it now. I remember recently they did show there was some interbreeding between H. Sapiens and Neanderthals. This is very interesting. Perhaps it explains racial differences between Europeans and sub-saharan Africans?

So with their large brains, if Homo Sapiens didn't exist, they probably could have formed civilizations eventually. Their range seemed dependent on the weather too. They stayed with the cold weather.

This could be the Civilization series spin off. I can't think of a catchy title right now, maybe later.

Neanderthals were homo sapiens

if you want asia-centric games, stick to japanese or taiwanese games... though they're more likely to make yet another dynasty warrior or kung pow MMORPG , than a turn-based strategy with a white miniority.

Thats rasist

Greece out? GREECE? The land of Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Pericles, Leonidas- great people from every walk of life? The core of the greatest empire in the world at the time? The foundation of Roman culture, and thus the foundation of Western culture? THAT GREECE?

Seriously, please suggest a non-Euro civilization (not in game) that could POSSIBLY stand up to Greece for inclusion?

Because Greece wasn't a civilization?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Brilliant

Tibetan Empire? it has spent it's history as either a backwards totalitarian theocracy or a province of China

They ruled much of Central Asia (and therefore the Silk Road and a giant portion of world trade) for a time.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/tibet-map1.htm

I wouldn't include them either, but they have an interesting history and are at least worth a look.

Cordoba would be a pretty interesting decision, but like Tibet probably too limited to be included before some other civs.

 

[Dragonflow]

I guess this is bit late but the OP said that only Europeans have two UU and I just noticed that this is wrong. Both Japan and the Ottomans have two UU. I don't know if this is important right now but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[jespersa86]

i've checked the CIV5 site and did some counting:

7 european civs, when also counting Russia and US, which is debatable
7 Asian Civs (counting ottomans as asia, as they originated from anatolia, and advanced into europe after that)
2 african civs
2 american civs

I dont think Europe is overrepresented. Civilization happened in Europe and Asia, so this figures.

I also think that the game's developers wanted to make a fun game, with a large variaty between the different civ's as a goal. I think they succeeded at doing that.

 

[craig123]

Did Europe have that much influence on the world? Is really a dumb question. Did Mesoamerica have that much influence on the world? Dumb as well but I bet you are eating Chocolate, Corn, and etc that originated there. Now I want to drink some of an Ethiopian plant called coffee(Brought to Europe by Arabs and probably tiggering Europeans of the time to think again making an enlightment). There are too many things anyway that other groups outside of Europe continent(Which I really think should be considered a subcontinent of Eurasia) that influenced aka "Europeans".

You don't know what would happen if Distillation or Algebra was not created in Arab Caliphate and learned in Europe would be the outcome. Or who knows if China had not improved the paper the making process, gunpowder, compass. Modern Western culture is based on getting ideas from the other groups.

Sorry but that's quite a weak argument: Europe didn't invent everything on its own so it's not really that impressive? Mesoamerica gave us chocolate and corn, and Ethiopia discovered coffee; are these really noteworthy contributions?

The question 'Where would we be without the Arabs/China?' is an interesting one but it doesn't prove that Europe's achievements are somehow less impressive. Why not ask 'Where would the rest of the world be without Europe?'

IMO the choice of civs is about right, striking a balance between having the most important civilizations, while at the same time having a geographical spread and a mix of interesting and unique cultures. I think you'd be pushing things a bit far trying to include another non-European civ at the expense of a European one, given that Spain didn't make the cut and Siam did. For me, the Mongols are the only other notable exclusion.

"Rise of the Homos"

Love the title!

 

[Kyriakos]

Actually i would like more euro civs, and erasing some of the non-euro ones

 

[SammyKhalifa]

i've checked the CIV5 site and did some counting:

7 european civs, when also counting Russia and US, which is debatable
7 Asian Civs (counting ottomans as asia, as they originated from anatolia, and advanced into europe after that)
2 african civs
2 american civs

I dont think Europe is overrepresented. Civilization happened in Europe and Asia, so this figures.

I also think that the game's developers wanted to make a fun game, with a large variaty between the different civ's as a goal. I think they succeeded at doing that.

A lot of people consider the Middle East and Far East as distinct areas.

 

[CHEESE!]

Because Greece wasn't a civilization?

What is your definition of 'civilization'? They generally spoke the same language, same style of architecture, generally a very similar life in Athens to Corinth to Byzantion. What do you want? Even if they weren't a civ by anyone's standards, they were so massively influential as to deserve inclusion.

 

[civ_king]

What is your definition of 'civilization'? They generally spoke the same language, same style of architecture, generally a very similar life in Athens to Corinth to Byzantion. What do you want? Even if they weren't a civ by anyone's standards, they were so massively influential as to deserve inclusion.

are you really telling me Spartans and Athenians were very similar?

 

[Ahriman]

I find people's thing about "Europe vs Middle East" odd.

To me, "Eurocentrism" means Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.

The greater European powers in the game (in this sense) are England, France, Germany, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Arabia, Ottomans, Russia.

I can't imagine how anyone could think of leaving any of these out of a game about Civilization.

 

[craig123]

I personally wouldn't count North Africa or the Middle East as being part of Europe.

 

[Kyriakos]

I find people's thing about "Europe vs Middle East" odd.

To me, "Eurocentrism" means Europe, North Africa and the Middle East.

The greater European powers in the game (in this sense) are England, France, Germany, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Arabia, Ottomans, Russia.

I can't imagine how anyone could think of leaving any of these out of a game about Civilization.

Germany could well have been left out, but lets not start this once more

 

[Ergo Sum]

I personally wouldn't count North Africa or the Middle East as being part of Europe.

Neither would I, really. But Carthage is essentially a European civ in Civilization 4/only there to role play with Rome. Carthage is, all in all, not a very impressive civ.

A lot of what I hear in this thread is people convinced that their own history is more important than that of others, or the history which they don't know.

 

[Dragonflow]

Germany could well have been left out, but lets not start this once more

Could you give any reasons for that?

 

[Ahriman]

I personally wouldn't count North Africa or the Middle East as being part of Europe.

Then there are only 5/18 European powers.

How is that Eurocentric??

I think its totally appropriate to think about the European rim; north African and middle-eastern powers have played a major part of European and western history in general.
In all honesty; European rim, Persia, India, China, Japan. That is where the innovation and the action has been led from. Everywhere else has largely been playing catchup.
[And in very modern times, north america.]

Now, I'd have no problem with saying dividing up India more, and having Mughals and Marathas or similar.